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Just looking for a quick sanity check here. In some ways this reminds me of the Dr Seuss book “Are You My Mother?” “Are You My On-line Forum?”
I started out in 2005 on NOM and met this Brian Johnston guy. I was pretty energetic on NOM for a long time, but it reminded me of my time in the Marine Corps. After awhile I didn’t really remember the new private’s names, just “he’s like private Smith we had last year”. Most people arrive at NOM with a pretty similar level of shock over what they have learned. They adjust, they develop bad attitudes, and generally just spin out of the church and move on.
My journey was different. I was stuck in the middle. Not so much in the anger phase, but I was pursuing sort of a middle way which was part anger and part exploring the evangelical Christian side of my Mormonism.
I spent less and less time on NOM and more and more time with another on-line community of people for whom this wasn’t their first rodeo with church “issues”. Not angry, open to discussion, and some of the smartest people and best writers I had come across.
As time has gone on, most of the people in that community have largely devolved into cultural Mormons, if they even attend at all. They discuss whatever goofy thing might have been said in church, but nobody really cares much about theology because they are settled in their (un)belief.
Sadly I am still in the middle. I’m reading the talks from the last GC, some of which I find inspiring and others infuriating. I belong to a Protestant church I attend pretty much exclusively these days, but I still read the BoM and the Ensign, trying to figure this out. There is no way I could ever return to full activity or get a TR, but I am still Mormon.
I read Pres Eyering’s PH session talk this morning and there was so much left unsaid there. He focused almost exclusively on Pres Monson holding the keys of the sealing ordinances and almost totally overlooked the fact that Monson may hold the keys, but Jesus Christ made the entire door and lock that that little key fits into. I really have nowhere to discuss this in depth and would like to be able to discuss with smart people who see the flaws in much of what happens, but yet still care enough to discuss it and not just dismiss it as irrelevant to their lives.
Just wondering if my path qualifies as “Staying LDS?” I don’t want to be fully active, because there’s not enough Jesus in the LDS church, but at times there’s not much “community” in the non-LDS world. I want both and remain stuck in the middle, to the end most likely.
It sounds like you’re in the right place to me. 🙂 I was a little confused when I first stumbled across this forum because the name “StayLDS” gave me the impression that its mission was to help anyone who was struggling to remain in the orthodox box. That’s simply not true. There is quite a mix of opinions and personalities on this board, but generally I would say
mostof us are bound by two commonalities: 1) We have been through some type of faith crisis, and no longer accept all the church doctrine and practices at face value.
2) Despite the flaws, we still see good in the church and want to be part of the community still in some way.
There are some members here who are still fully active and hold callings, but there are also many others who have chosen to limit their participation to a level they feel comfortable with.
I attend almost every week. I teach HP and I do not believe much of if any of the doctrine. I just find Mormonism to be my home. It is the only culture I have ever really known, and the one I am most comfortable in. I have gotten much better at letting things slide at church and ignoring all the zanny stuff. I do not pretend to even try and find some inner meaning in the church or scriptures. I do not deal well in nuance and mystical stuff, I am much more of a pragmatist. If it makes sense and works then it is good. My difference is I do not find Christianity any more reliable than Mormonism. They are both based on what a bunch of men have said over time, so I will never attend another church. I just do not see the point in it. Same dance just a different location.
I guess I am the ultimate cultural Mormon. If that is the middle way OK. What is a label anyway?
I think leavingthecave (LTC) said it. That’s kind of what StayingLDS means, but there is a ton of diverse ways of doing it. I too teach HP regularly now, and have figured out how to do it in a way that is interesting but not offensive. I belong there for now, as long as my kids are growing up and perhaps beyond. And I have a testimony….strange mix of contradictory ideas which are getting more and more comfortable existing side by side. For example, I have a testimony I should have joined the church years ago, but I don’t believe that the structure is perfect that everyone is inspired, or that it’s necessarily an extension of Christ totally. It’s more of a temporal organization than the Kingdom of God on earth literally, if that makes sense. But I did get a testimony it’s “true” on some level — just not the same level of TBM Mormons think it is.
This baffles TBM’s because it means it’s true and it isn’t at the same time.
I participate in NOM, a fair bit more than here — I think you are correct for a portion of that site, people come in, spin out, and leave the church. But an interesting current poll shows of 46 respondents: 7 have withdrawn membership, 13 will never withdraw, and the rest, more than half would leave if there weren’t consequences. A survey some time back shows that maybe as high as 25% are active members, with the larger group being semi- or inactive. I like NOM becuse it’s a guarded form of the wild west. There is an openness for staying in, leaving, or anything in between.
I am one of the ‘active’ ones, although for a couple of years I’ve been working and travelling in a way that allows a lot of church vacations.
I’m extremely committed to the “Middle Way” modeled after Confucius’ thoughts along the same line. In so doing, I have been told by John Larsen that I’m intellectually dishonest and need to “grow a pair”, and I’ve been banned by LDS.net. I’m becoming more outspoken in my ward, and they haven’t thrown me out yet.
I think StayLDS best reflects a balanced, believing Middle Way position, for which I’m deeply grateful.
I think your resume qualifies you to be a member of this forum. Welcome.
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I love that “the evangelical Christian side of my Mormonism” ! That exists in me too! afterall wrote:I love that “the evangelical Christian side of my Mormonism” ! That exists in me too!
I’m channeling Grant Palmer here, but to me the BoM is 19th century Methodism in amber. It answers most of the burning theological questions of the day in a nice neat package. It’s trinitarian and aggressively grace-centered. It’s not about the foundation of a large bureaucratic corporation running a church, as opposed to a church running a corporation. To me it refines a lot of the doctrines for which there are building blocks in the Bible, but really no coherent and processed summaries. I was reading the Book of Enos a couple of days ago and found it to be the best thumbnail sketch of the gospel out there. I mean, Jacob had a much sounder understanding of Christian faith and theology than any of the apostles in the Bible and presents it much more succinctly. That’s the church I want to belong to, the one where a 14 year-old boy could go into the woods seeking a spiritual experience and have the world’s understanding of religion turned on its head.
Sadly, I don’t know that we teach that anymore.
In some ways non-denominational Protestant churches are more Mormon than the LDS church is. There’s that restless pioneer spirit and the idea that God has something new out there, just beyond the edges of what we can see in the light before us. They’re just bound by the early church councils and ideas of “inerrancy”.
BobDixon wrote:to me the BoM is 19th century Methodism in amber. [snip]… I mean, Jacob had a much sounder understanding of Christian faith and theology than any of the apostles in the Bible and presents it much more succinctly. That’s the church I want to belong to, the one where a 14 year-old boy could go into the woods seeking a spiritual experience and have the world’s understanding of religion turned on its head.
Yes, I like this part of your comment.
And because of the Church, and our prophets, we have the wonderful words found in the Book of Mormon, the keystone to our religion. I love reading the Book of Mormon, parts like this in Jacob 3:
Quote:1 But behold, I, Jacob, would speak unto you that are pure in heart. Look unto God with firmness of mind, and pray unto him with exceeding faith, and he will console you in your afflictions, and he will plead your cause, and send down justice upon those who seek your destruction.
2 O all ye that are pure in heart, lift up your heads and receive the pleasing word of God, and feast upon his love; for ye may, if your minds are firm, forever.
Can we have a pure heart, seeking God’s love, and see some things in the bureaucratic structure of today’s corporate church we are critical of? I think so. I think the tension between staying true to our roots, but growing with the times always presents opportunities for things to change and for us to voice our opinions on what is good and right, and what is not.
Thanks for posting, Bob. I think you’ll fit in here nicely, because we can discuss these things honestly, without the conversation inevitably leading to only one outcome…give up on it and leave the church. I personally believe it is worth fighting through to find ways to stay…the Church has much to offer us, if we keep our hearts pure.
Deleted. I don’t like labels – at all. I just don’t care about them, since they always misrepresent some people in their stereotyping net. I’m a great example of that, frankly. I’m as active as it gets in every way that counts – but I don’t call myself a TBM. On some sites, I’m considered conservative; on other sites, I’ve been called borderline apostate. Some commenters on my personal blog have thanked me for being one of the key catalysts in their conversion and baptism into the LDS Church; others have chastised me for leading people astray. I’m not a label; I’m ME – and I’m a quite unique me, thank you very much.
To me, “staying LDS” means that I walk my journey within the LDS Church – and I can bear testimony of lots and lots of wonderful experiences while doing so. I’m about as “believing” as it gets here at this site – but that doesn’t mean I’m stereotypical in many ways. I’m a TBM who has some fairly heterodox views – and some radically heterodox views – and some very orthodox views – and some views that aren’t fully formed yet.
I’m not a Mormon who is Ray; I’m Ray who is a Mormon. I am my own “I am” – and it’s an LDS “I am”. It’s just uniquely me. I believe in my own “middle way” in the Confucian sense about which wayfarer talks – in finding meaning and balance and personal harmony as I’m pulled by opposites. I don’t believe in “A Middle Way” (as I’ve said in other threads), but I do believe in the concept of walking in harmony with my own conscience – which Joseph Smith preached very clearly.
That’s me – but I respect and honor and support anyone in the pursuit of living according to the dictates of their own consciences. I hope that’s accomplished while staying LDS, but each person has to make that call for herself – and it’s not my place to judge or label in a derogatory manner.
Shawn, I fully support Ray’s comments above, and want to make sure we are clear on language.
Your post, above, reflects a different meaning of the “Middle Way” than what I mean with the term. When you use the term with initial caps as I use it, it implies a special, proactive life of being centered on the Way (center = ä¸ middle), and in my usage, it has nothing at all to do with fence sitting nor mediocrity.
One does not default to the Middle Way. It is deliberately chosen and actively lived day by day. it includes a contemplative discipline:
– to achieve balance and avoid extremes of emotion,
– to find middle ground in our discourse with others,
– to recognize we are in the middle of our eternal lives of progression and are therefore a work in progress, and
– to open-mindedly seek for the truth at the heart of all things.
is this the way of rubbish? i do not think so. I am active LDS, serve in the temple regularly, take my calling quite seriously when I have one, and have a testimony — a witness to what I know to be true, and am not sitting on the fence: i am not saddled with doubt. And while I find falsehood and deception in some of church history and practice, it does not diminish my testimony of the things i have found to be true.
I embrace questioning as part of the Way of eternal progress. I reject apologetics, for I feel that truth needs no defense, and partisan polemics are not part of the Middle Way. Contention on one hand and unquestioning compliance on the other do not foster harmony.
I am not alone on this path. Many, if not most others here on StayLDS live an authentic Middle Way of their own choosing.
I am convinced by long experience that once someone has left the cave of being an unquestioning TBM, it is unlikely that s/he can return to it and stay there. I know you have made a commitment to return, and I hope it works out for you. A quarter of a century ago, i did the same, at curiously the same age as you, and with many of the same experiences…only i was also dealing with active addiction. I wish you the very best of luck and without any degree of condescension, can assure you from my own experience that it doesn’t work for everybody. If it works for you, please continue with my heartfelt blessing.
Shawn wrote:I think the Middle Way is rubbish. It’s not a great way to live, stuck on the fence or standing with one foot in Israel and the other in Babylon. Neither enjoying the blessings nor “enjoying” riotous living. If one experiences a faith crisis, it should be overcome quickly.
I also lived the Middle Way for a couple years at least – I just had no idea people were calling it that. I had serious concerns but continued church attendance. I served in my calling only half-heartedly. I rarely went to the temple. I thought about leaving altogether.
Many people who are perceived as TBM live the MIddle Way. They may not have serious concerns, but they don’t have burning testimonies. They go to church to avoid conflict and don’t take home teaching or other things seriously.
I very much like being a TBM (as I now consider myself to be) more than living the Middle Way. I sincerely hope that all here will work toward being TBM. For now, I suppose living the Middle Way to stayLDS is better than leaving altogether.
I don’t see why you would say you could never get a temple recommend again.
WHY NOT‽Also, I respectfully but strongly disagree with the statement “there’s not enough Jesus in the LDS church.” I apologize for being new here and not knowing your history. Your registration is new and I don’t really know whether you’re an old-timer in these “middle way” discussion boards, a new zealot, or frankly just a troll who likes to stir things up. Not trying to be insulting here, but I just don’t know.
The most polite response I can muster is that I just don’t think you know what you’re talking about. I don’t think your statement that the “middle way is rubbish” is accurate, because your definition of the “middle way” is from the typical black/white TBM perspective where people suffering a faith crisis are just slackers who aren’t trying hard enough or who don’t measure up in some way. Your description of the middle way being between Israel and Babylon is a false dichotomy and is based on the paradigm of the gospel being about behavior, personal righteousness, and keeping the commandments. That’s what the church teaches, so I don’t suppose you can be faulted for that, but my own belief is that the gospel is primarily about faith and belief and heart change, and behavior follows those things and not the other way around. The gospel is primarily about faith, grace, and forgiveness and not about personal behavior.
The “middle way” is centered in the more mature understanding that the institutional LDS church is deceptive in its teachings and practices. All for good reasons, in the same way that you don’t tell the whole truth to children, but at its core it is still deceptive. It whitewashes the history. It is not truthful about the true doctrine. The “middle way” is not accepting the black/white “the church is true or it isn’t”, but appreciating that the truth is somewhere in the middle and being able to live with that in peace, to accept the good things while not ingesting the bad ones and being overcome by them.
It is not always possible to overcome a true faith crisis quickly when the object of your faith is found to be based on a foundation of shifting sand. For example I’ve been in my “crisis of faith” since about 2005. The last tipping point was an Ensign article solemnly quoting Marion G Romney to the extent that my salvation was in jeopardy if I didn’t believe the 1838 First Vision account. If you’ve been around at all you know there are several accounts, and the 1832 version, the first one recorded, is substantially different than the 1838 version, and forcing me either in or out of heaven based on just one version is completely irresponsible. So, how does one quickly overcome a faith crisis over something like that? Other than by just leaving.
The primary reason I could never get a temple recommend is because I believe Thomas S Monson is a good man who tries hard, but in no way measures up as “prophet seer and revelator” in the way we are expected to shower him with adulation and total obedience. I just this morning read his PH session talk, and it fell far short of what it should have been. The usual recycled sappy stories from half a century ago and trite moralisms. Limp dishwater. I respect the First Presidency and apostles as leaders of the church, but their revelation for my life doesn’t trump my revelation for my life.
As far as not having enough Jesus in the LDS church, that’s almost worthy of another post, but this one is probably enough damage for one day. It would be an interesting exercise to read Enos and Jacob and 2 Ne 25 and compare the tone to most of what is said in general conference or in church lessons. One is designed to turn my heart towards faith in Christ. The other is mostly focused on capturing my time and my money and my obedience, and hopefully I’ll find Christ in there somewhere.
Thanks for listening, and sorry if I offended in any way. I just don’t know how else to put it.
BobDixon wrote:The “middle way” is centered in the more mature understanding that the institutional LDS church is deceptive in its teachings and practices. All for good reasons, in the same way that you don’t tell the whole truth to children, but at its core it is still deceptive. It whitewashes the history. It is not truthful about the true doctrine. The “middle way” is not accepting the black/white “the church is true or it isn’t”, but appreciating that the truth is somewhere in the middle and being able to live with that in peace, to accept the good things while not ingesting the bad ones and being overcome by them.
Excellent explanation–exactly what I feel as well.My initial reaction to Shawn’s message was very similar to yours, excepting that I have seen how Shawn can have a remarkably fresh insight from a different perspective. I would give him the benefit of the doubt.
Before we react further, please read Ray’s and my response above. I think we’re on the same page.
wayfarer wrote:Your post, above, reflects a different meaning of the “Middle Way” than what I mean with the term. When you use the term with initial caps as I use it, it implies a special, proactive life of being centered on the Way (center = ä¸ middle), and in my usage, it has nothing at all to do with fence sitting nor mediocrity.
One does not default to the Middle Way. It is deliberately chosen and actively lived day by day. it includes a contemplative discipline:
– to achieve balance and avoid extremes of emotion,
– to find middle ground in our discourse with others,
– to recognize we are in the middle of our eternal lives of progression and are therefore a work in progress, and
– to open-mindedly seek for the truth at the heart of all things.
I suppose I really don’t understand it then.
wayfarer wrote:is this the way of rubbish? i do not think so. I am active LDS, serve in the temple regularly, take my calling quite seriously when I have one, and have a testimony — a witness to what I know to be true, and am not sitting on the fence: i am not saddled with doubt. And while I find falsehood and deception in some of church history and practice, it does not diminish my testimony of the things i have found to be true.
Your way is certainly not rubbish. I was actually just trying to be clever by being self-conflicting. In one paragraph I call it rubbish, and then confess that I lived the Middle Way in the next paragraph. I’m sorry for any misunderstanding.I do not see the Middle Way as a permanent solution, but I could be wrong.
wayfarer wrote:I embrace questioning as part of the Way of eternal progress. I reject apologetics, for I feel that truth needs no defense, and partisan polemics are not part of the Middle Way. Contention on one hand and unquestioning compliance on the other do not foster harmony.
I see your point here. But I actually think that many people can use an opposite argument when finding “anti” stuff. I think many apologetic explanations shed useful light on history as well.
wayfarer wrote:I am convinced by long experience that once someone has left the cave of being an unquestioning TBM, it is unlikely that s/he can return to it and stay there. I know you have made a commitment to return, and I hope it works out for you. A quarter of a century ago, i did the same, at curiously the same age as you, and with many of the same experiences…only i was also dealing with active addiction. I wish you the very best of luck and without any degree of condescension, can assure you from my own experience that it doesn’t work for everybody. If it works for you, please continue with my heartfelt blessing.
I am thinking about this. Thank you.
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