Home Page Forums History and Doctrine Discussions TR Question Offshoot – What about unrighteous dominion

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  • #206827
    Anonymous
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    This is in regards the two temple questions that ask about sustaining our leaders – 1 directly & 1 indirectly by asking if we keep temple covenants:

    So I have a question I am curious how you all would deal with. This issue definitely hits close to home with the current bishop of the ward I live in.

    39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise cunrighteous dominion.

    40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

    This is a very insightful statement. The reality is that church priesthood leaders are just men. As such, sometimes they exercise unrighteous dominion in their leadership positions. Generally this is minimal or not a problem – however sometimes it can be extreme and even abusive.

    How do you deal with this? How do you reconcile it with the command to sustain church leaders?

    I really don’t believe the intent of “sustaining leaders” is to suffer unrighteous dominion, yet I think that is exactly what often happens.

    Side Note: There seems to have been a major shift in this since Joseph Smith’s time. These days you would feel super guilty for voting against – I’ve never seen a vote be anything but unanimous – it kind of reminds me of the “free elections” previously held in Iraq. However when Joseph Smith tried to release Sidney Rigdon as his counselor the church voted against him and Sidney retained his position.

    Note: I’m asking this because I suspect the answer(s) could be helpful for some.

    #255610
    Anonymous
    Guest

    bc_pg wrote:

    How do you deal with this? How do you reconcile it with the command to sustain church leaders?

    I’ll answer as I did in the TR series thread. “Sustaining” my leaders is not defined as being an obedient soldier and obeying orders from your superior officers, even if they are illegal (to put it in military terms).

    “Sustaining” them is in helping them to be effective. If I believe they are exercising unrighteous dominion in a way that is causing harm, “sustaining” them would mean I would try to talk to them privately and let them know what I think. I could volunteer to help out or change things to make stuff easier for them, etc.

    Disagreement can be done in a very uplifting and sustaining way. It can be done in a degrading way also that injures the community.

    If I love someone, I should want them to be the best at what they are working hard to accomplish.

    #255611
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    The reality is that church priesthood leaders are just men. As such, sometimes they exercise unrighteous dominion in their leadership positions. Generally this is minimal or not a problem – however sometimes it can be extreme and even abusive.

    How do you deal with this? How do you reconcile it with the command to sustain church leaders?

    1) by recognizing and admitting exactly what you just said. There’s nothing “magical”, in and of itself, that changes someone who is put into a position of leadership – man or woman. The only thing that changes automatically is the time commitment they accept.

    2) by recognizing that increased responsibility pushes “the natural (wo)man” toward increased unrighteous dominion. It pushes “the unnatural (wo)man” forward to greater at-one-ment. It pushes most people who live somewhere between those extremes either or both ways.

    3) by agreeing with Brian and defining “sustain” as “do my best to help someone” – and realizing that sometimes the best help I can provide is a different perspective – or a simple refusal to do something.

    4) by not being a prick about it or refusing to do anything for the person but continuing to do everything I feel I can do in good conscience and balance.

    5) by going above the person’s head in extreme situations – always calmly and meekly and humbly, but clearly and precisely (and pointing out that I take my commitment to sustatin God the overall Church above my commitment to any one person.

    If I am going to a Stake President, for example, about a Bishop, High Priest Group Leader, EQ President, etc., I always make it crystal clear that I am doing so out of genuine concern for the him and the Church itself – that I believe the problem I am trying to address is serious enough to be talking with him AFTER I’ve tried to talk with the other person. Again, as I say a lot, tone, attitude and appearance mean a lot in situations like this. I won’t be stepped on, but I’m not doing any stepping on or punch throwing at any point in the process.

    #255612
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I sustain church leaders just like I sustain the president, my parents, my boss. They have a job to do, sometimes rather large and they need cooperation to get it done. However, I draw a soft line that’s movable to acomadate everything else I need to do in life. I draw a hard line when something starts to hurt me or someone else following the instructions in either a physical or emotional way. No if, ands or buts. I choose not to follow a “arm of flesh” that will do so. However I will follow and substain to th best of my ability (which changes everyday as a side effect of being human) as long as it is not harming anyone in doing so(physically or emotionally).

    #255613
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I’d try talking to them privately. if there was no satisfaction there, I would go over their head, but only in rare situations.

    This has never happened to me in the church.

    #255615
    Anonymous
    Guest

    We have such high standards for ourselves and others that it is not surprising that we frequently are disappointed –by ourselves and by others. I think sustaining means also being willing to forgive…even if the offending party never asks or wants our forgiveness. Being in any leadership calling is challenging. Even more so in an organization of volunteers who will quickly criticize any misstep or public fumble. I try to give my leaders the benefit of a doubt. I try to assume that they are good men and women who, with their own complex mixture of strengths and weaknesses, are trying to do the right thing. I imagine that there are a few leaders out there who are purposefully malicious but they are few and far between. In my experience, the leaders that I have disliked have been thoughtless or foolish or even mentally ill (I remember one particularly difficult woman who who served in the primary presidency while I was a teacher. In retrospect, I’m almost positive she suffered from a personality disorder of some kind.) Unrighteous dominion is not an action performed only by the evil and wicked. In fact, I’m sure the scripture was making reference to the kinds of human beings we all are: occasionally weak and silly.

    #255616
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    I’m sure the scripture was making reference to the kinds of human beings we all are: occasionally weak and silly.

    Amen.

    When I admit I am prone to it and actually exercise it occasionally (or often, to a lesser degree), I am far less prone to criticize it when I see it in others – except in truly egregious cases.

    #255617
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Gerald, you might be interested in this quote I posted under book reviews regarding “Healing Your Church Hurts” by Stephen Mansfield.

    “This is what we often forget when church becomes for us an anointed haven, when the grace is flowing and all is well. We become sentimental. In our minds we remake people into what we need them to be. We are not wise in our love, prudent in our commitments, knowing in our fellowship. And so the evil comes and we are first amazed and then destroyed and then knocked off our axis as though never to return.” He gives a new insight on forgiveness that I had not been exposed to. I could go on and on, but will stop and let you read the book for yourselves. I especially liked the history focus of many people who are viewed as heroes such as St. Patrick, John Wesley, Vincent Van Gogh and even Bono of U2 and the things they went through in their lives. That was interesting to my family.

    There’s not a one of us who doesn’t make mistakes and sin (or whatever term one is using). However, when there truly is unrighteous dominion and it truly does cause harm to someone, it can turn into a malicious act whether it started out that way or not. Bishops and stake presidents need to be very sure they have the ability to strengthen relationships when they start hurting someone under their dominion. I hope and do feel most are very careful and will check themselves immediately. However, I am aware of too many situations where some are not checking themselves or even recognizing the red flags the Lord may have built into the situation to alert them to their own weaknesses, not necessarily a red flag on the person they are exercising the unrighteous dominion upon.

    When someone has truly been hurt, I hope they can be treated with love and compassion and reinforcement of what the gospel’s really about and not be shunned or labeled. While we redirect for positive here, I also hope we can remain compassionate if someone is working through one of these situations. Those who have experienced a very negative experience with someone in authority over them ( and I use that term in the way some priesthood holders insist on using it) can experience a crushing disconnect between the church and God. Or worse, can feel as if God has abandoned them and then give up all hope.

    #255618
    Anonymous
    Guest

    The priesthood holders I respect the most can handle situations being worked through and can look at themselves and correct themselves, rather than running to other priesthood holders for allies or to further strengthen their case. Having the ability to recognize when a misstep or mistake has happened and then to utilize the opportunity to make restitution, usually a simple apology, goes a long long way in a priesthood holder’s effectiveness.

    #255619
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Excellent replies:

    Follow up question. What would you do if you attempted to speak with them privately and hit a dead end or were even punished by them for it?

    #255614
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Honestly, I don’t know – since I don’t have any more detail (and I’m not sure I want the details here).

    In theory, I answered that question in my first comment. I don’t know if there’s anything I can add.

    #255620
    Anonymous
    Guest

    If I hit a dead-end on that one, I’d have to do a cost-benefit analysis. Out of that would come a decision to tolerate the situation, or to quit. The same sort of decision-making a person makes in their work/professional/job life.

    I’d consider the impact on my emotional state, the message I am sending to my family, the perception of others in the Ward, the people impacted by my “quitting” in the cost-benefit analysis.

    #255621
    Anonymous
    Guest

    It’s hard for me to say. I can just speak for me. That I really don’t in love pride in my decision. On the other hand I have to live with the “dictates to my own conscious”. I have to live with my own conscious. You can never run away from oneself. So if I am ask to violate that, that is something I can not do. Since it would change me in many fundamentally and negative ways. I can make sacrifices, I can make many of them. But I can’t be someone else or someone elses mind.

    #255622
    Anonymous
    Guest

    As Ray and others pointed out, if you feel it’s a serious enough situation and the private discussion doesn’t work out well, it might benefit to go above. If a priesthood holder has shifted to a punishing mode, it needs to be be brought to above. I am not referring to situations that would require councils, etc.

    As Silent Dawning pointed out, many factors will need to be weighed if you run into a brick wall. Hopefully, a person won’t walk away from the church in a situation like this, although I know a couple that have. Ultimately, we shouldn’t fear what man can do.

    That’s why I really like the book I referenced earlier. It gives real life examples and is encouraging to hang in there for good’s sake. The story is not over until life is ended. And to realize there’s a whole big world out there. Do we really have time to waste with butting heads with a leader who has his/her own issues? One priesthood holder would remind some of us frequently, “With every calling comes a release.” And “some leaders are here to try us.”

    #255623
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    What would you do if you attempted to speak with them privately and hit a dead end or were even punished by them for it?

    I’d be frustrated, angry, and then (depending on what the issue was) I’d try to move on. Life it too short to focus on the occasional unpleasantness that arises from our interactions with others. Life isn’t fair either. Life’s only constant is change and eventually this too shall pass.

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