Trapped in Disneyland…or Utah County

Welcome Benlin.

When I was first married, my DW and I chose not to be part of the student wards at BYU, but rather went to the local Provo 9th ward just south of BYU campus. We had two rather interesting members in our Ward who lived amongst the Campus Ghetto area: Hugh Nibley and his family, and Dallin Oaks and his family. Of course, Oaks lived on the only house on Campus, so it was a unique situation.

Nibley was the Gospel Doctrine teacher in the ward. I loved it, my wife hated it. But we were there two years, and I loved Nibley’s commentary on the decadance of what was perceived to be Zion. Many of the words of “Approaching Zion” were often thrown about as Nibley explained his views of the real Zion. I have come to really appreciate what Zion could be, and as a result, I consider myself a Utopian Socialist, politically, which in the Church of Ezra Taft Benson is a non-starter of course.

As was a grad student/teaching assistant at the time, I noticed, over and over again, how many ponzi schemes cropped up in Utah. The fundamental principle spoken of in the book of mormon is “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall prosper in the land”. As well, there is this gem:

But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; …

Since all members have a hope in christ if they’re doing the ‘stuff’ required of them in the church, then you deserve riches. If I prosper in the land, I must be keeping the commandments, right? In other words, the scriptures are twisted around to show that prosperity is an indicator of doing the right things: that your life is completely square with the Lord.

They somehow forget the rest of the scripture:

…and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

details, details. If I’m paying my fast offering and tithing, I’m good. The rest of it can go toward a great and spacious building right next to the temple. My sister has a house worth $1M right next to the Draper temple. It’s how the righteous live in Utah-Zion.

Not sayin anything here, but there is a difference between Utah-Zion and the pure in heart, where no poor exist — hopefully not because they’re excluded, but because there is true equality of opportunity and advancement for all.

’tis a dream that ain’t going to happen.

But I vent.

One thing I found curious in your statement. you say that you know that the book of mormon is what JS said it was, also the PogGP… Ok. There are a couple of things about the book of mormon and, specifically, Abraham in the PoGP. Let’s evaluate two claims:

1. Joseph Smith claimed that the books are authentic translations of ancient people. The BoM of the native americans, such as Zelph. The BoA as a translation of a papyrus written by the hand of Abraham.

2. Joseph Smith claimed that these were inspired works.

I fully accept the second claim for the Book of Mormon. I have more issues with the BoA, given that its cosmology and some of its ontology is off. As for the first claim, do you believe that these are authentic translations of ancient people? What if you found out that they were not? Would that alter your faith in the second claim?

I’ve just uttered what many righteous Utah County Republicans consider blasphemy. You’d think that capitalism, free markets, etc., was enshrined in the scriptures, our church doctrine and the pronouncements of all the prophets.

I live near DC. It ain’t just Utah County Republicans. It’s pretty much then entire membership here. Except maybe Brother Reid.

I think it is much easier to be a good member of the Church and a Democrat than a good member of the Church and a Republican. (source)

Amen, my brother.

Wayfarer….

I remember reading about the “Zelph” incident in Bushman’s “Rough Stone”. I do not “know” anything, however I do believe the BOM is an actual translation of an actual ancient record…although I’m not sure the word “translation”, or at least translation as we normally think of it, fits. I read the BOM literally every day of my life from age 17 to 30, and from 30 to today I’ve been through it several times. At BYU, in Bro. Backman’s BOM class, I memorized it from cover to cover, and could quote it with about 80% accuracy. I’ve outgrown a lot of authors in my lifetime (I read a lot), but after all of these years of reading the BOM, not only have I not outgrown it, I feel as though I’m just now beginning to understand it, at least in a way I didn’t before. I do believe it is an actual ancient record, that there really were gold plates and a man named Mormon who pulled all of the records of his people together and abridged these records, including in his abridgment Nephi’s small plates, etc., etc. When I was a missionary I used to occasionally stop whatever it was I was doing and say to myself, “This is all really true! It is really true!” On the one hand I found it frankly all unbelievable, but on the other hand I “knew” in a way I cannot describe that it was true. And it just seemed so amazing to me, and it still seems so today, the whole story of Moroni and the Gold Plates, the Urim and Thummim…frankly all unbelievable, except that I would stake my life on its being, in actual material fact, true. I don’t “know” this in the way one is used to knowing things, yet I know it better than anything that I think I know. I’m probably not making sense here. Suffice it say that, yes, I believe the BOM is an actual ancient record.

As for the PofGP…as Bro. Nibley observed, JS brought forth the Book Of Moses only a short time after the BOM–“and they are completely different books!” I remember as a young missionary reading Moses 1 over and over again, and marveling at the language, the depth and profundity of the narrative. Whoever came up with this, wrote it…well, this was not a ordinary man, even if you leave the BOM entirely out of the picture. This is why I am entirely unmoved by critics and anti-Mos who point out the flaws of JS, his teenage wives, this or that. To me it might be similar to someone pointing out that Shakespeare was a terrible husband and he beat his wife and he was stingy with money. I’d shrug and say, “So? ‘Hamlet’ still exists, and so does ‘Macbeth’, ‘As You Like It’ and all of the rest.” Whoever dumped on us, first the BOM, then the Book Of Moses, later the revelations in the D&C (some of which are as remarkable as Moses 1), and finally the Book Of Abraham and the King Follettt sermon…well, this was not a ordinary man. To me it makes more sense to view him as one of the Gods–whatever his personal failings may have been.

As for the Book Of Abraham, the papyrus, etc. This one of the things I don’t know much about. There is a story current that Hugh B. Brown did not think the Book Of Abraham ought to be part of the canon…but I don’t know. But whatever it is, it is a remarkable production, completely different in style and tone from the Book Of Moses. Is this really the voice of Abraham? I personally think that it is–whatever may actually have been on that ancient papyrus (and I do know that what was mostly likely on that papyrus was ordinary funeral writings).

Correction….

It was not Bro. Backman’s BOM class at BYU, rather it was Reid Bankhead’s class. Does anybody on this board remember Reid Bankhead at the BYU Religion Dept? Quite an interesting personality….

Welcome Benlin. In my heart of hearts I believe in Zion. Or at least the idea of struggling to achieve a place such as it. The idea that we may progress for it everyday. Not by waiting for it to appear out of nowhere one day. But by each doing our part to progress towards it. By telling ourselves, if not me then who? A place where we all build and uplift each other. Serve each other. Strengthen the weak, don’t strive or seek to get gain over another. And realize that there are no big or small tasks, all are equally important. I believe we all can start by doing our part to make the works a better place by following the 2 greatest commandments.

Zion is right here brother.

There’s so much cool, inspiring and audacious material in Mormonism. I also still love the idea of building Zion — a place where people are of one mind and one heart (sharing a spirit of peace and love, not brainless automatons), and there are no poor among them. What a beautiful dream!

Prosperity Gospel is a pernicious idea that has crept into modern LDS, Mormon culture. It is so opposite of what Joseph “revealed,” opposite of what the Savior taught, and goes against the preaching of King Benjamin. It seems perhaps like it crept in as we tried to become more and more like mainline protestants (and be accepted by the world).

I have been reading the Didache — a first century treatise on Christian doctrine — one which I find extremely cool.

It speaks of two ways: The Way of Life, and the Way of Death.

Way of Life: First, you shall love God who made you; second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you. It then echos most of the primary commandments of the gospel: no killing, stealing, adultery, fornication…

Way of Death: hypocrisy, double-heartedness, deceit, …, self-will, greediness, …, over-confidence, loftiness, boastfulness; …, loving vanities, pursuing revenge, not pitying a poor man, not laboring for the afflicted, …, afflicting him who is distressed, advocates of the rich…

The Church is directionally true for me, but sometimes the humanity of the organization reflects human failings that do not seem to be in harmony with the Way of Life.. To me, this puts some responsibility on a member to voice, in all sincerity and humilty, a more excellent Way, in our teachings, in our participation, and in our personal lives. I’m not sure it serves to actively oppose the church due alone to its most human failings, but rather, to be engaged, 1 on 1 with those who suffer as a result.

I think that’s why we do this here.