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President George Albert Smith said:
Quote:“Within the last year, I have had the privilege of meeting and conversing on the gospel with some men who live in this community [Salt Lake City], not members of our Church. One man had resided here for twenty years, a man whose life is above reproach, a good citizen, a splendid business man, one who has kindly feelings towards our people. He told me that he had lived here twenty years, and he had come to the conclusion that we were just as good as our neighbors who are members of other churches; he could not see any difference in us.
“I want to say to you, my brethren and sisters, that is no compliment to me. If the gospel of Jesus Christ does not make me a better man, then I have not developed as I should, and if our neighbors not in this Church can live among us from year to year and see no evidence of the benefits that come from keeping the commandments of God in our lives, then there is need for reform in Israel.
I can understand President Smith saying the church SHOULD produce stand out citizens in our community if members were doing everything they should be doing…and yet, I could say that same thing of any other religion as well, right? If they all just did everything they were supposed to do, Catholics would be stand out citizens too, wouldn’t they?
I’m interested from this group what observations each of you have had of fruits you see by church members in your communities or work places, or people of other churches. Do you see differences?
My ward has started service initiatives. We pick Saturdays and show up for yard work. Installed a sprinkler in one members yard. Did some landscaping in another’s. It looks like the old barn raising days when multiple people show up, and work together. It is a great thing bringing unity to the ward. I haven’t seen other groups doing those kind of service projects. It stands out to me.
But it is like the barn raising idea…which is done in Amish communities. I see some things from the Amish that stand out as well.
We have good people in our ward, and I see good people at work of other religions. Honestly, I cannot see the difference, I just like good people and think the LDS church is one of many sources of helping good people produce fruit.
What are your thoughts/experiences?
I didn’t like the quote, not surprisingly. It does a good job of capturing the aspects of the church that I find the most disagreeable. Heber13 wrote:Honestly, I cannot see the difference, I just like good people and think the LDS church is one of many sources of helping good people produce fruit.
What are your thoughts/experiences?
I can’t either. I see good, bad and in-between wherever I look. This was a huge part of my faith transition. Now, I bristle at the idea that my friends’ Catholicism or Protestantism somehow prevents those friends from being whole.
Other than WoW and how awfully busy we are, I don’t think we stand out very much as a group. We stand out more for some of our beliefs that are perceived as kind of strange. In fact, our sometimes overcommitment to the organization often makes us fade into the background because we tend to hang around members of our own community and look inward rather than making a difference in our communities. Also, the numbers say that we give less than other churches to outside causes, notwithstanding our probable greater wealth.
Right now I’m getting more involved in the community and enjoying that very much as it’s service but without expectations or duty.
Quote:we tend to hang around members of our own community and look inward rather than making a difference in our communities.
This is the biggest issue of concern for me…
I’ve actually asked myself this a lot because after learning the history through acident by our own PR department 4 months ago. The article about a BYU professor I think it was that was either still teaching or made a comment about the black doctrine and priesthood teachings of old. The PR response was that it was http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/53617297-180/church-bott-mormon-priesthood.html.csp ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/53617297-180/church-bott-mormon-priesthood.html.csp I have many old official church and unofficial GA books books dating pre 1968 and even pre 1950 and before. and I knew the response to be a very slick PR response. So I went consulting the books to make sure I didn’t remember wrong. That led to doing much research and led to me here finally. So my point with this is if our PR department sounds like a response Clinton made during the Monica lewinsky trail then how will that make the church look different in the positive way that he was looking for if we in our public statements and PR campaign look Judy like another religion or business.
On a personal experience basis I will always remember 2 things said to me. When my mother told me I was the most non jusdgemental person she ever knew. And when my best friend who is an Orthdox Jew said to me one day, do you know why we are friends? I couldn’t think of anything in particular besides getting along well. I told him I really didn’t know. He said to me because you are the only one who has never back stabbed me once even in my family. Those are positive things to say about the teachings and principles in the faith but… Both of them did not make me feel good to hear. In fact I didn’t want to hear it because it made me feel very sad suddenly. I don’t know if I want to hear or create or live in a works where only a select few % that belong to a particular religion(LDS) stand out. I pray for a world where in as much as possible everyone from all walks of life love and help each other. I see a lot of good work going through our religion(mostly to serve each other) but I see a lot of that as well among friends of mine from many religions and many countries and cultures. Which I am grateful and not sad to see. But we could Definitely work on helping others outside our faith and community…. A LOT! Not by adding even more time away from home an addition to our already many meetings and service. But by accepting a simple truth…. “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
“And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.” Mosiah 2: 17 Some how that tends to get narrowed to within the church instead of the within the world.
Serving others even outside of the faith should count at such, you could even think of it as a calling. I think it should still count as a holy service not independent of regular service within the church to be done only after you have done your church fulfillment of callings inside the church if you have enough time left.
Heber13 wrote:President George Albert Smith said:
Quote:“…he had lived here twenty years, and he had come to the conclusion that we were just as good as our neighbors who are members of other churches; he could not see any difference in us…I want to say to you, my brethren and sisters,
that is no compliment to me. If the gospel of Jesus Christ does not make me a better man, then I have not developed as I should, and if our neighbors not in this Church can live among us from year to year and see no evidence of the benefits that come from keeping the commandments of God in our lives, then there is need for reform…I’m interested from this group what observations each of you have had of fruits you see by church members in your communities or work places, or people of other churches. Do you see differences? Honestly, I cannot see the difference…What are your thoughts/experiences?
I guess I would expect to see better and more endearing behavior out of anyone that takes being Christian seriously than the average non-religious person and maybe the Church has achieved that to some extent but definitely not as well as possible. It seems like we have such a large list of things we should and should not do and what we should and should not believe to cover that some of the basic virtues like charity, patience, forgiveness, etc. often end up getting lost in the shuffle and have basically become optional compared to tithing, the WoW, fulfilling callings, and temple marriage that are treated as being more important.
We hear that the two greatest commandments are supposed to be to love God and your neighbor but as far as I’m concerned you can do already that without being temple worthy by the Church’s standards and you can also be temple worthy without lying and despise your neighbors and treat them terribly. That’s what I see; some of the central tenets that the Church focuses on the most basically have nothing to do with being a good person and actually end up excluding or alienating many decent people and at the same time this checklist approach makes some of the remaining members complacent and self-satisfied as if they have already done enough and are already righteous so then it mostly ends up being a distraction from any “weightier matters.”
I think it is a false teaching. The church and the Gospel and the Kingdom of god are not the same thing.
Therefore his entire premise is flawed….IMO.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
I think it’s a true teaching – that, given what the Church claims, we should be better Christians, in the aggregate, than we are. I believe it is a strong commentary on how we are living the Gospel – even as I also believe we shouldn’t be living it any better than any other people who claim to be disciples of Christ. The standard is the same, so the real point is that we ought to be living it to the best of our ability, collectively and individually.
cwald wrote:I think it is a false teaching.
The church and the Gospel and the Kingdom of god are not the same thing.
Therefore his entire premise is flawed….IMO.
indeed. especially since the person saying it was apparently a very good person himself, and didn’t mean it as insulting.i think this indicates a flawed obsession with appearances. with ritualized behaviors that distance people from each other.
and i know this is completely bad, but when i heard as a kid that comment about ye shall know them by their fruits, i thought “how could anyone would anyone evaluate people by their underwear?” (i wore “fruit of the loom” as a kid, and then there is that sequence in the BoM about fruit of loins) i was so confused….little did i know….
True ray…but that is not the teaching. He specifically compared church members to the other Christians neighbors…and there was no difference….which is what put him off. I think his premise is that we should be BETTER than our Christian neighbors.
Quote:President George Albert Smith said:
“Within the last year, I have had the privilege of meeting and conversing on the gospel with some men who live in this community [Salt Lake City], not members of our Church. One man had resided here for twenty years, a man whose life is above reproach, a good citizen, a splendid business man, one who has kindly feelings towards our people. He told me that he had lived here twenty years,
and he had come to the conclusion that we were just as good as our neighbors who are members of other churches; he could not see any difference in us.“I want to say to you, my brethren and sisters, that is no compliment to me.
If the gospel of Jesus Christ does not make me a better man, then I have not developed as I should, and if our neighbors not in this Church can live among us from year to year and see no evidence of the benefits that come from keeping the commandments of God in our lives,then there is need for reform in Israel. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Silent Dawning said: Quote:In fact, our sometimes overcommitment to the organization often makes us fade into the background because we tend to hang around members of our own community and look inward rather than making a difference in our communities.
that is so true SD and have thought this myself. going back on your thread on needing help in your lesson on missionary work: one of the best tools we can have on doing missionary work is going out in the community and doing acts of service as a group. if people in our community see us doing Christ-like service and rubbing shoulders with the less-fortunate then what greater way to show people what we stand for as followers of Christ.As one saying goes:
Quote:i would rather see a sermon than hear one any day !
i have heard of one instance of one LDS congregation rebuilding a church for a congregation of another denomination after a natural disaster. now that is one super example of Christ-like love !
:thumbup: what better way is there, than this, to do missionary work and to show that we care about our neighbors not of our faith ? (none, of course !):clap: Cwald, I think you exactly identified the issue for me. To be honest, the past few years, in my relationship with church and home with my family, I have found a great need to work on my personal inclinations to compare myself to others and see if I’m stacking up, and the feelings that if bad things are happening it must be my fault for not being a good Mormon.
It is still hard for me, but I feel I am getting closer to just being comfortable who I am and the circumstances I am in. I try to live in the now.
But as I fight these Natural tendencies, I notice at church and with quotes from leaders like the above, that I think it has been drilled into me that I should be better. I have learned that from my Mormon culture all my life. I have been told as a high priest I should know better. As a life long Mormon I should be more committed. I have been given greater light and knowledge and so I am held to a higher standard than others. I was part of an elect generation reserved for these last days (so I better not blow it). And of course, along with those, I was promised blessings that would accompany my efforts to be “better” than my neighbors who don’t have the light and knowledge (and was frustrated the blessings were not greater than my neighbors).
It is so centered in the comparisons that fuel pride, not love.
I think it is a big part of why I struggle to let go and just be content. I now hear those things regularly at church, and I am sensitive to them because I am specifically trying to distance myself from them. Any reference to greater blessings or the flaws in other religions is a hot button for me (which I internalize and realize it is something I need to process and learn from).
It is a part of my journey I have tried to overcome, but I notice now I still am faced With it on a regular basis. I see now, that I was taught this from the church. But I was also taught love. I must pick and choose the things I was taught that are healthy in my life…hence the cafeteria approach.
I still think George Albert Smith was right to expect the “gospel of Jesus Christ” to make Church members better people than what we typically see. Where he went wrong was with the arrogant ideas that Church membership alone should automatically make us better than everyone else in a visible way as if we know something special that no one else does and that we should supposedly be magically blessed with impressive prosperity as a guaranteed result of keeping commandments (Mormon traditions?). No significant reform or improvement is likely to happen as long as too many members including top leaders continue to believe that the Church is already perfect but the people aren’t because some unnecessary problems actually are a direct result of existing priorities, inefficiency, and misguided ideas prevalent in the current system. The problem is that Church leaders typically expect members to constantly try harder to make all the existing doctrines and structure work better than they ever really do when so much is already expected of them instead of ever stepping back and asking what is most important and why if people can’t manage to do everything at the same time. It is already too much for the average person to digest and execute so adding new bullet points to what we already have will not necessarily help at all. Also, I don’t know if it’s such a great idea to depend so much on yes/no questions to measure and drive success where it has to be all-or-nothing and there is not much of a point to doing the best you can short of these strict expectations. You can’t really measure things like love, happiness, or wisdom that way; some of the most worthwhile success is subjective and a matter of degrees not something you can just check off a list and call it done.
To me the 3-D dolphin picture applies here. The task is to promote the “mighty change of heart” that is an essential part of becoming truly charitable after the model of Christ. I see it similar to giving someone so many suggestions on how to see the dolphin in the picture that they don’t have time to relax, focus, and explore seeing “through” the picture until it comes into view. Sometimes the checklist can hinder true progress. I tend to think if we focused most messages on charity, forgiveness, not judging, unconditional service, opening your heart to the spirit of Christ etc. our fruits would demonstrate the shift.
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