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I visited the City Creek Center for the first time today. The other mallgoers may or may not have have noticed my jaw dragging on the ground as I walked. I walked by the Teavana store and saw that they were giving out free tea samples. Why can I get tea
for freeat a Church-owned mall? I didn’t know what to do. Should I sample the tea? Was it OK to drink that was provided by the Church? I went the Cheesecake Factory and saw that alcohol was sold there. I’d read that alcohol was sold at the mall, and was outraged by it, but seeing it really drove the point home. Is it OK to buy alcohol from the the Church, then go across the street for an endowment session at the Salt Lake Temple?
I saw that miniskirts and other “immodest” clothing could be purchased at some of the stores in the mall. Some of the manequinnes were wearing outfits that would be considered inappropriate at BYU and at YSA activities. The Church goes to great lengths to teach young women not to wear immodest clothing. So why is the Church selling it? Is it OK for a girl to wear an “immodest” outfit that she bought from the Church?
I know the rationale behind selling these things, but they don’t make sense. Here they are:
1) “Since the Church (and presumably, active Church members) aren’t drinking or wearing these products, then the Church (or its members) are not committing a sin.” By this same reasoning, I could be a pimp and hire some prostitutes and make a ridiculous amount of money, and as long as I wasn’t personally committing fornication, I wouldn’t have committed a sin and could get a temple recommend.
2) “It’s the individual businesses that are selling these things, not the Church.” This shows a lack of willingness by the Church to take responsibility for the products that are sold by the vendors in its mall. If alcohol, tea, and immodest clothing are sold in a Church-owned venue, and the Church is collecting profits from the sale of these products, then then Church is selling them.
3) “The mall needs to sell these products to attract customers to the mall.” I was always taught by the Church never to compromise Church principles for anything, even if it means giving up my own life. To see the Church compromise its principles to make money is an outrage.
I’ve passed up many opportunities because they would have compromised the behavior principles that the Church taught me, so to see the Church selling alcohol, tea, and immodest clothing is completely outrageous to me.
If the Church really believes its message and its teachings, isn’t it contributing to the damnation of the souls who buy the alcohol, tea, and immodest clothing? Isn’t the sale of these products counterproductive to the mission of the Church? Isn’t the purpose of the Church to help create a world that has less alcohol, less tea, and less immodest clothing? Isn’t the Church being a “servant of Satan, who upholds his work” by selling these things, as stated in D&C 10:5?
InquiringMind wrote:I went the Cheesecake Factory and saw that alcohol was sold there. I’d read that alcohol was sold at the mall, and was outraged by it, but seeing it really drove the point home. Is it OK to buy alcohol from the the Church, then go across the street for an endowment session at the Salt Lake Temple?
I’ve gotta say this one doesn’t really bother me at all. As one reads Section 89, one sees that the WoW is not given by way of commandment or constraint, but as a guide. I have known LDS folks who are absolutely shocked to merely be in the presence of alcohol – I’m in a profession where cocktail parties, mixers and other social events are almost mandatory, and some of my LDS colleagues shrink from them because there will be other people there drinking. In fact, I’m often the most popular guy at these things; I have a constant stream of requests for rides home. As for me, it’s never bothered me. I guess because for the first dozen+ years of my life my dad smoked and drank. I have chosen not to drink, but I don’t begrudge anyone else (whether LDS or not) who chooses to imbibe.
I like the Cheesecake Factory, so I’m glad to see one in SLC. Next time I’m in town, I’ll stop in and have a Jambalaya with a piece of NY cheesecake. Bottoms up!
The LDS bookstores aren’t much different with selling some of the stuff they sell that members are taught not to read or purchase. Immodest clothing doesn’t really bother me, since I’m into bodybuilding contests, although it can get out of hand. There are some temple worthy members that do wear that stuff as part of their job in the bodybuilding and fitness industry. Members of the church involved is still a minority, though. The standard answer I’ve been given is that it’s a business and people have their free agency. And maybe the problem since the church tries to help people outside the church so much that we’ve become too mainstream. Thanks for sharing this….the mall has been a bit of a spiritual eyesore to many people and your observations and perceptions are well-taken in my view. I was teaching RS a few months back and a sister in the class had just returned from a trip to Utah. Keep in mind that most of us here, half a country away, have not and will not likely see the mall anytime soon. She started describing it and talking about looking through the glass windows over at the temple across the way. She referred to City Creek as the great and spacious building. I don’t think she knew the church funded the project. In the class were visitors from SLC who had come out to see a grandchild born and blessed. They were nodding along in agreement with her assessment. I imagine they did know who paid for the mall but that didn’t stop them from acknowledging their disgust in church. How can church leaders not realize that this is a troubling issue for many members?
There is evidence that since the beginning of the church, the church-owned and sponsored businesses dealt in trade in products and sometimes ‘services’ that were against the counsel of the leaders. I kind of wish this whole City Creek thing would be put into perspective. In my impression, the leaders wanted to upgrade Salt Lake city center, they invested heavily into a world-class mall, inviting profit-making businesses into that mall. if the mall only catered to the faithful, it wouldn’t be financially viable, and the companies like Cheesecake factory, who make a lot of margin on alcohol, and clothing stores, who make money selling to people who will buy… such profitable stores wouldn’t be there.
I feel the need to make clear some things:
1) LDS dress code and Word of Wisdom standards apply to church members who choose to be faithful by those definitions.
2) LDS dress code and WoW are not eternal principles, but rather, current policies requiring obedience.
3) Non-LDS (and some LDS) expect and enjoy coffee shops, wine with dinner, and clothes suitable to season. nothing wrong with these.
4) Obedience to LDS policy is a personal decision based upon a person’s own agency and choices.
City creek mall exists. Perhaps the church might have done better investing in something else, but it now exists. Like it or not, some of my tithing money is somehow tied up in it, and I would prefer that it wasn’t tied up in an albatross that loses money. I don’t see much to be gained in rehashing what appears to be an unfortunate choice by the church to exercise their free agency on the mall. it is what it is.
I’m sure this is a minority opinion.
Here are some interesting scriptures in the Book of Mormon that relate to this issue, IMO. I’m not going to try to give my interpretation – I think you can interpret them a number of ways. I will say that by the way I read these some of things cause concern and others seem to be in support. Quote:1Nephi 13:7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.
8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.
Quote:Alma 1:28 And thus they did establish the affairs of the church; and thus they began to have continual peace again, notwithstanding all their persecutions.
29 And now, because of the steadiness of the church they began to be exceedingly rich, having abundance of all things whatsoever they stood in need—an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind, and also abundance of grain, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things, and abundance of silk and fine-twined linen, and all manner of good homely ccloth.
30 And thus, in their prosperous circumstances, they did not send away any who were naked, or that were hungry, or that were athirst, or that were sick, or that had not been nourished; and they did not set their hearts upon riches; therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church, having no respect to persons as to those who stood in need.
Quote:Alma 4:6 And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.
7 Now this was the cause of much affliction to Alma, yea, and to many of the people whom Alma had consecrated to be teachers, and priests, and elders over the church; yea, many of them were sorely grieved for the wickedness which they saw had begun to be among their people.
8 For they saw and beheld with great sorrow that the people of the church began to be lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and to set their hearts upon riches and upon the vain things of the world, that they began to be scornful, one towards another, and they began to persecute those that did not believe according to their own will and pleasure.
Quote:Jacob 2:18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.
Quote:1 Nephi 8:26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
1 Nephi 11:36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
As I read these statements above, some are advocating straight-arrow application of our values, holding fast to them, and not giving in to simply achieve the worldy end of the Mall — improving the downtown area of SLC. Others are more apologetic. I honestly feel justification of the mall is creating a double standard. One for the members, and one for the church as an entity.
Would not our LDS culture, and the “holding fast to the iron rod in spite of opposition”, advocate excluding businesses that are not in harmony with our teachings? And letting God bless us for our steadfastness in obeying Him? Is not this the message we hear over and over and over again at church? Why do we let the church take the easy way out and err on the side of Mammon in order to achieve a material win in this case?
Some will say — well, it’s not the church — the church is a separate entity so it doesn’t count. For me this is nonsensical justification that shows there is a gospel for Sunday and the cameras, and another less-value-driven “gospel” for the temporal arm of the church.
I personally find it hard to separate the two quite frankly. Very hard.
The only way I’ve survived in the church is by lumping the ecclesiastical church in with the temporal organizations owned by the church. I have unconsciously treated the church as one giant temporal organization which doesn’t completely believe in the ideals of the ecclesiastical part of the organization. It breeds a certain amount of mistrust on my part, as it seems to me the local people really do believe in the One True Church, and the Church-can-do-no-wrong concept, but decisions made at the top (with many GA’s also acting in operational capacities in the temporal businesses of the church) lead me to different conclusions.
It seems to me there is a gospel meant to make the general membership good LDS folks who support the growth of the church with their time and resources, and a second set of philosophies focused on economic well-being — with economic well-being often trumping our religious values.
Not isolated to the mall either….my life experiences have shown this on three other occasions in ways that are deeply meaningful to me.
Quote:1) LDS dress code and Word of Wisdom standards apply to church members who choose to be faithful by those definitions.
2) LDS dress code and WoW are not eternal principles, but rather, current policies requiring obedience.
3) Non-LDS (and some LDS) expect and enjoy coffee shops, wine with dinner, and clothes suitable to season. nothing wrong with these.
4) Obedience to LDS policy is a personal decision based upon a person’s own agency and choices.
Well put, especially #2. If more people understood that, we wouldn’t have to listen to so many people saying Jesus drank grape juice.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think IM is suggesting that everyone ought to subscribe to a particular set of rules, but is pointing out the inherent hypocrisy of a church which preaches that its members ought to shun the very appearance of evil, and yet is hand in glove with purveyors of “evil” things. I see his point. The Church doesn’t own the stores in the mall.The Church isn’t selling those things.The mall isn’t for Mormons only.I have no problems at all with the things described in the post. If the mall exists for the citizens of SLC and visitors to the city (if it’s a normal mall), it should be providing those things.
This one is easy for me.
Old-Timer wrote:The Church doesn’t own the stores in the mall.The Church isn’t selling those things.The mall isn’t for Mormons only.I have no problems at all with the things described in the post. If the mall exists for the citizens of SLC and visitors to the city (if it’s a normal mall), it should be providing those things.
This one is easy for me.
+1. This.Old-Timer wrote:This one is easy for me.
If the church owned a building in Nevada which it leased to a company that ran a legal brothel, would that be just as easy to accept, Ray?
Where is that line?
For my part, it’s not being involved in business ventures that bothers me but the incongruity between the following two recent statements:
(Elder D. Todd Christofferson Oct 2008 GC)
We might ask ourselves, living as many of us do in societies that worship possessions and pleasures, whether we are remaining aloof from covetousness and the lust to acquire more and more of this world’s goods.Materialism is just one more manifestation of the idolatry and pride that characterize Babylon.Perhaps we can learn to be content with what is sufficient for our needs. The Apostle Paul warned Timothy against people who suppose “that gain is godliness” (1 Timothy 6:5).
Said he, “We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
“And having food and raiment let us be therewith content” (1 Timothy 6:7–
.(BusinessWeek 7/12/2012)
When it came time to cut the mall’s flouncy pink ribbon, Monson, flanked by Utah dignitaries, cheered,
“One, two, three—let’s go shopping!”Quote:If the church owned a building in Nevada which it leased to a company that ran a legal brothel, would that be just as easy to accept, Ray?
That depends. Is it closed on Sundays
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