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Do we, as a church, believe that the ONLY way to live with your spouse and family throughout eternity, is if you join the mormon church (whether on this earth or in the afterlife)?? The only way to live with a spouse for eternity is to be sealed to them. Which of course would require baptism first. “As a church”? Sure. However, when you look at that concept a little more closely, “as a church” we believe the ordinance will be performed for everyone eventually – so it really is a moot point.
I mean that seriously. We believe it, but our version of it makes it irrelevant in the end.
I like that, personally.
So the only way to be sealed to your loved ones is if you join the church. And as Ray said, everyone will have the ordinances performed for them eventually, because of temple ordinances, and God will reveal all lost names in the millenium etc..
But as I understand, the ordinances only matter if the person accepts the gospel. So that’s why we’ll have missionary work in the afterlife going on to those in spirit prison.
My question is why won’t missionary work be %100 successful in spirit prison, since the adversary will have no influence there? Isn’t the adversary the only force that prevents people from feeling the spirit and being converted?
Do we believe that all of us get special kudos, because we were actually part of the less-than-one-percent that actually accepted the church on earth?
Quote:Do we believe that all of us get special kudos, because we were actually part of the less-than-one-percent that actually accepted the church on earth?
Paradox drives some people nuts. I happen to love it.
Frankly, I believe the concept and principle of nearly universal salvation and ambiguity of eventual outcome is critical to being able to understand and live the type of “Gospel” Jesus of Nazareth taught – and then what Joseph Smith “restored”. To me, it’s much more about the inclusivity and “nowness” of the central message than it is about the “motivational doctrine” that tries to focus people on the urgency of acting now. I understand very well that most people need some kind of reason to act differently right now than they would without such motivation; therefore, I don’t mind at all the drive to do vicarious work for the dead to show a real “turning of the heart” away from self to include all of the family of God. It gets twisted by too many members, but, at the core, it should be something that weakens or eliminates the natural tendency toward social Darwinism and the accompanying scorn toward “those unenlightened fools” who lived before us (or who live now but are in “less advanced and enlightened” cultures than we do).
Again, I know that doesn’t happen with too many people (and the exact opposite happens too often), but the paradox allows both options – which allows people to act as agennts unto themselves to move in whichever direction they choose.
I like that, since I want that freedom and responsibility.
Quote:However, when you look at that concept a little more closely, “as a church” we believe the ordinance will be performed for everyone eventually – so it really is a moot point.
Does anyone know when this teaching began. Specifically, when did the church start trying to do the temple work for everyone who ever lived on the earth? It would seem to me that it needs to be pretty recent, at least after the 1979 revelation on the priesthood.
It has always been my thought that this teaching was to resolve the problem of explaining why the one true church had such a small percentage of members.
What happens if people are sealed, and one’s not as celestial as the other? Should both pay for it? alaskaboy19 wrote:Do we, as a church, believe that the ONLY way to live with your spouse and family throughout eternity, is if you join the mormon church (whether on this earth or in the afterlife)??
There is a distinction between what is taught (yes, the teachings say you must have saving ordinances to be an eternal family), and what we believe (variation by person on how to apply what is taught).SamBee wrote:What happens if people are sealed, and one’s not as celestial as the other? Should both pay for it?
Once you get into “What if” scenarios…it falls apart, in my opinion.
Eventually the answers will resort to…”We actually don’t know that much about the Celestial Kingdom and how it will work with eternal families”.
So the remainder that is left that can’t be explained by revelation we’ve received so far is covered with a blanket statement…”it will get worked out in the eternities. But we can trust God it will be right.”
I sure love my family. My kids are so precious to me. I want to be with them forever…that is my celestial kingdom.
Heber13 wrote:
Eventually the answers will resort to…”We actually don’t know that much about the Celestial Kingdom and how it will work with eternal families”.So the remainder that is left that can’t be explained by revelation we’ve received so far is covered with a blanket statement…”it will get worked out in the eternities. But we can trust God it will be right.”
I sure love my family. My kids are so precious to me. I want to be with them forever…that is my celestial kingdom.
I realize we don’t now much about the Celestial Kingdom and eternal families. I wonder about those in the terrestial and telestial. Will they be denied the ability to see their loved ones?
Non members’ kids are precious and sacred to them as well. Will they be condemned to never see them again because they never joined the mormon church?
And to put things into perspective, we belong to a church that has around 5-10 million active members. It claims to be the one true church in a world of over 7 billion. So in this situation, don’t you think even a little doctrinal ambiguity might not be such a good idea? Don’t you think God would make things a little clearer, if only 0.14 percent of His children belong to His only true church? Just sayin.
alaskaboy19 wrote:don’t you think even a little doctrinal ambiguity might not be such a good idea? Don’t you think God would make things a little clearer, if only 0.14 percent of His children belong to His only true church? Just sayin.
Oh, I think there is plenty of ambiguity in our doctrine. I just think more people need to see the ambiguity, and be less certain about thinking we know how heaven will work. I just don’t think we really know. We focus on a “put your shoulder to the wheel” mentality so we can strive to achieve the highest degrees of the highest kingdoms…but we don’t really know much about what will happen once we get to those places.I return to what I said earlier…we don’t know much about the after-life. We just are told to have faith it will be worked out, it will be wonderful, we can’t imagine how wonderful it will be…but aren’t told really what it will be. Its a Christmas gift we can’t open, but we are so excited with hopes it will be awesome! So we should just focus on what we can do today while in this life.
Eternal families would be such a blessing. But then…is that me and my wife, and our brothers and sisters, and our parents on both sides, and our kids, and who they marry, and their siblings and their parents and ???? It starts to look like less like my eternal family, and really a huge bunch of people at my wedding I don’t know, along with people I do. Maybe some of them can go inside the temple to see the wedding, and others I get to see at the reception, and maybe my wacky cousin I have to go visit in jail because he can’t get out to come to the reception.
That’s one possible scenario based on how this life works. But do we really think heaven will be a lot like how this life works? It could be drastically different. We don’t know for sure.
Yes but I wonder about nonmembers. Do we know they will not be able to be with their families? alaskaboy19 wrote:Yes but I wonder about
nonmembers. Do we know they will not be able to be with their families? No.
Do you really think God cares or is going to check your paperwork in the next life.
Love and commitment is what will determine the next life….not a certificate. IMO.
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No, we don’t know that. In theory, if everyone has a chance to accept or reject – and, in theory, if every righteous person will accept regardless of their religious affiliation on earth – and, in theory, if even baptized Mormons will be scattered among kingdoms of differing glory – then, in theory, the distinction between “nonmembers” and “members” that mean so much here on earth to so many (including a higher percentage of believers outside the LDS Church, frankly) won’t mean squat in the hereafter. In practical terms, it won’t be “members” and “nonmembers” as much as “people who end up in different places”.
Again, I think it’s important to wrap our minds around that central paradox – that we are supposed to be a peculiar people who will end up being not peculiar in any way whatsoever. We are to be different but not care about it as much as we do, just like everyone eventually is supposed to be different but not care about it in the end. Zion is unity forged despite difference – and “heaven on earth” is the creation of that type of Zion. Thus, “the Celestial Kingdom” is a continuation of Zion past mortality.
We’re still a long way from it, but that’s our “pure theology”, and I really love it. It can be hard to embrace initially for many people, but it can be amazingly liberating when embraced.
Old-Timer wrote:No, we don’t know that.
In theory, if everyone has a chance to accept or reject – and, in theory, if every righteous person will accept regardless of their religious affiliation on earth – and, in theory, if even baptized Mormons will be scattered among kingdoms of differing glory – then, in theory, the distinction between “nonmembers” and “members” that mean so much here on earth to so many (including a higher percentage of believers outside the LDS Church, frankly) won’t mean squat in the hereafter. In practical terms, it won’t be “members” and “nonmembers” as much as “people who end up in different places”.
Again, I think it’s important to wrap our minds around that central paradox – that we are supposed to be a peculiar people who will end up being not peculiar in any way whatsoever. We are to be different but not care about it as much as we do, just like everyone eventually is supposed to be different but not care about it in the end. Zion is unity forged despite difference – and “heaven on earth” is the creation of that type of Zion. Thus, “the Celestial Kingdom” is a continuation of Zion past mortality.
We’re still a long way from it, but that’s our “pure theology”, and I really love it. It can be hard to embrace initially for many people, but it can be amazingly liberating when embraced.
Ray, this is interesting… & please let me know if I misunderstand you… but it seems that we agree, from what I gather.
I believe (& I think the heart of Mormonism believes) that the same spirit that posesses us here, will be after death… with less limits & with a different perspective, but we’re not going to all of a sudden become completely different. Water meets its own level, energy is attracted to like energy (well in some cases opposites, but still similar in a way). So, after death, our spirit is where our heart/treasure is. If that’s the same as our spouse, than it is, if it’s not, there ain’t no fakin’ it then. It’s pure theology… actually not even theology – but pure expression of spiritual desire.
I think the concept of eternal family becomes warped in many families who end up not having the perfect journey through life. I have children from two different women. I am only sealed to one of their mothers so I was only able to be sealed to the children I had with her. So now I have one daughter whom I cannot be sealed to. Does this mean I can’t be her father in the hereafter? If I can, then sealing is not important. God will just take care of it. If I can’t, then it cheapens the concept of eternal families because my one child will not be in my family. Personally, I don’t think God would create families only to tear 99.9% of them apart just because they weren’t sealed in a mormon temple. I feel like the sealing ordinance is symbolic of a commitment to work together and to stick together in this life. I don’t think it has a lot of impact on the life after.
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