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I am a person who has studied extensively the theory of evolution from an anthropological perspective. I know about homo habilis, Australopithecus, and the “Lucy” skeleton. I could explain evolution and the adaptation of species, and punctuated equilibrium. I am in awe at Stephen Jay Gould, Dawkins, and Darwin himself at the depth of the theory of evolution. It is pretty dang compelling. Yet, at the same time I feel the Spirit and have great faith. And know that there is a God and that He spoke to Joseph Smith and many prophets before, and prophets since. Yet, sometimes I feel that intellectually I have outpaced my spirituality. There are times that I am overly critical of the Church and actually want to find reasons to leave since I cannot make sense out of the suffering one of my sons is put through, and the suffering that I have put up with, with being out of work for over a year. I don’t understand how I can go on to raise a family when I have to seek state assistance for my survival.
I am confused. Jesus stated, “Ye are the salt of the earth and if the salt doth lose it’ savor it shall be cast out and trodden under the foot of men and it should be cast out since it is good for nothing.” I read a commentary on this verse that it was a metaphor not to contaminate beliefs (the word of God) with traditions, pagan beliefs, or philosophies of the world. Internally I have done this. I have internalized the philosophies of men to understand them and actually don’t mind discussing them openly and might even subscribe to them. Now, I don’t even want to do missionary work “to season the world” I have been very reluctant to share the gospel with others since I do not want to impose my beliefs on them. I also feel that why should I invite anyone to Church, when the Church is already a parent that cannot take care of the kids it has; so why does it need to add to the family? I don’t really have a lot of love for my fellow man either. I actually often subscribe to the survival of the fittest paradigm. I don’t even really love many people in my ward family, except for a few that I can count on one hand. I do love those I home teach because I don’t blame them for not going to church, but I don’t feel compelled to invite them to it. I barely even talk doctrine or beliefs with them. So Where do I go from here?
Quote:Where do I go from here?
Personally, I would work on trying to obtain the charity you talk of lacking. When everything else fails (and it very well might), that can sustain the vibrancy of the Gospel and energize the heart.
I don’t know how to suggest you do that, since I have seen different people go about it different ways – but, if your Home Teaching example is any indication, I might start by focusing on finding ways to serve people in ways that are meaningful to them, no matter how you feel about those ways. Look around you with an intent to see what helps needs to be given, then give it whenever you can and arrange for it to be given whenever you can’t give it yourself.
I promise there is more that needs to be done than you can do, and I also am certain that the only way what needs to be done will be done is if someone does what they can do first.
“As I have loved you, love one another,” isn’t talking about preaching, imo.
jamison, I hope that you can take some comfort in knowing that there are others on this site that have or are going through similar challenges in their life. It’s not easy. We may not know the exact circumstances but you are not alone.
I once went to my Bishop & asked why can’t I get a similar answer as JS in D&C121:1-7?
He couldn’t give me an answer that I could use. Since then, I’ve come to understand that, it takes time.
My problem has always been that Iam like a little child. When I don’t get my answer or solution to my problem in the time frame I want,
I stomp my feet & hold my breath until I turn blue. When that didn’t work, I drank. That really didn’t work.
I hope that at some point in time you will be able to look back & say “take was hard but, I got through it”.
When you reach that point, you have the responsibility to help someone else.
I wish you the best.
Mike from Milton.
The pure gospel is truth. if you pursue truth without allowing it to be contaminated by literalized myth, then you are on the right track. I think it critical to understand the difference. Pure salt is a metaphor for ‘pure truth’. Learn the truth and sift out the false, and the metaphor stands. Adopt the BS tree of knowledge of good and evil — the schema taught by churches, and you have no savor, because it is truly worthless. Evolution is far more ‘true’ and substantiated than the myths of a bunch of shepherd-priests who tried to guess at the origins of the world and life. There is no valid reason for anyone to accept genesis as being literally true in any way, shape, or form. Genesis is fiction, myth: useful perhaps to tell a story, but as such, it goes right there with other good stories, such as Grimms Brother’s fairy tales, Hans Christian Anderson, Lord of the Rings, Les Miserables, Bhagavad Gita, and the Book of Mormon. Inspired fiction helps us understand faith and inspired ‘truths’, but are not literally true.
And I fully support what Ray and Mike said — once we know the truth, then we need to keep focusing on charity, love of christ, love of others. Like the Rabbi Hillel said, “That which is hateful to you, do not unto another: This is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary”.
Quote:than the myths of a bunch of shepherd-priests who tried to guess at the origins of the world and life
I’m inclined to give Moses a break on the creation.
Imagine that an astrophysicist and an evolutionary biologist had to explain the total origins of the earth, from the initial singularity to the present day, to one guy.
Then imagine that person had to write it down, from memory, in less than 10 pages.
That original writing is lost, but it is passed down by hand copying and re-translating into dissimilar languages over centuries.
Are you going to end up with anything that is remotely recognizable as the true account?
IMO the purpose of the Genesis creation myth is to firmly establish monotheism. The details really are lacking, but the main point that comes across is that there aren’t a lot of different gods in charge of the earth, just one. (You can disagree on the truth of this point, but I think that it was the purpose of the story.)
Thanks to all of you. Today was a great day for me. I wanted to bear my testimony in church, but because of the circumstances I could not. I don’t think people would understand my testimony, nor would they be ready for it. However, I received a stronger testimony than I ever had today about the Savior as the political Messiah who will come again. Right now I am okay with not having a job; When the Savior comes their will be zero unemployment. LOL, I took solace in this thought, but I’m sure I will have employment before this happens. Whew! I always seem to survive and have what I need, I just miss the ease of living when I could buy the Disneyland pass, and take extra scenic drives, and have an extra vacation.
I am becoming comfortable with my gospel scholarship and my intellectual endeavors. I am trying to take a balanced approach to such and have started to feel satisfaction from this.
Thanks for your thoughts and ideas,
Jamison
jamison wrote:I don’t think people would understand my testimony, nor would they be ready for it. However, I received a stronger testimony than I ever had today about the Savior as the political Messiah who will come again. Right now I am okay with not having a job; When the Savior comes their will be zero unemployment. LOL, I took solace in this thought, but I’m sure I will have employment before this happens.
i don’t think I would understand your testimony either…. the savior as political messiah? …who will come in time to get you job if you don’t get one on your own?i’m not sure i follow you…
wayfarer, LOL usually indicates a joke. 😆 
Jamison, I’m glad you are coming to grips with your own understanding of these things. Whether or not we see specific things in the same way, that’s the overall / foundational goal of this site – to help people hang on long enough to begin to establish a perspective / paradigm / understanding that works for them. I’m really happy to see that you are doing that.
jamison wrote:Thanks to all of you.
Today was a great day for me. I wanted to bear my testimony in church, but because of the circumstances I could not. I don’t think people would understand my testimony, nor would they be ready for it. However, I received a stronger testimony than I ever had today about the Savior as the political Messiah who will come again. Right now I am okay with not having a job; When the Savior comes their will be zero unemployment. LOL, I took solace in this thought, but I’m sure I will have employment before this happens. Whew! I always seem to survive and have what I need, I just miss the ease of living when I could buy the Disneyland pass, and take extra scenic drives, and have an extra vacation.
I am becoming comfortable with my gospel scholarship and my intellectual endeavors. I am trying to take a balanced approach to such and have started to feel satisfaction from this.
Thanks for your thoughts and ideas,
Jamison
I’m so happy you are finding balance. The very key to be at peace inside the situation. I have so much more respect and find so much meaning to the doctrine of “moderation in AlL things”. I wish you success in your search for peace within.
:thumbup: Wayfarer wrote: Quote:i don’t think I would understand your testimony either…. the savior as political messiah? …who will come in time to get you job if you don’t get one on your own?
i’m not sure i follow you…
1. Jesus’ second coming -Jesus will not be the Lamb like his first coming, but that he will come as the Lion of Judah to wipe out corporate greed, inequality, suffering, loneliness, unemployment, and any injustice. Babylon will fail, all physical governments will fail and fight against Jesus.
2. The Jews wanted someone like Moses to free them from the oppressive Romans, just as Moses freed the Isrealites from the Egyptians.
3. Latter-day Saints need to shift their view of the Messiah from the NT Jesus to the future Jesus. Yes, we need to live like Jesus did, but that does not mean we get beat up all the time. Even Jesus stood up against the money changers and Pharisees. He even destroyed the Roman Legion’s swine at Gennesert (Jews did not consume Pigs and historians claim that the swine herd belonged to the Roman legion that was stationed nearby. The devils who possessed the swine responded: “We are Legion”
4. I’m for Jesus as the Lion of Judah who is a militaristic messiah-to-come.
5. Members of the church are not ready for this as yet but I am and hope it happens in my lifetime. I’m tired of getting kicked down in life.
As I often say, if that works for you in your current situation, jamison, I am happy and do not want to challenge it in any way – even though I personally don’t see it that way, since that view doesn’t do anything meaningful for me. That’s one of the most powerful things about the concept and principle of a Savior / Messiah / Redeemer / Deliverer / etc. It really can be applicable and comforting to very different perspectives and help people in very different circumstances.
jamison wrote:1. Jesus’ second coming -Jesus will not be the Lamb like his first coming, but that he will come as the Lion of Judah to wipe out corporate greed, inequality, suffering, loneliness, unemployment, and any injustice. Babylon will fail, all physical governments will fail and fight against Jesus.
in the writings of the original saints, particularly those prior to 70 BCE, the second coming was an anticipation that Jesus would come back in their lifetime and vindicate the awful situation they were in at the time. Once Jerusalem fell, they continued the apocalyptic, and now looking toward the status of the seven churches in asia — the writers of apocalypse were convinced of a near-term event. Given the nature of revelation and inspiration to be to the mind and heart of those who are revealing it, do you think it’s possible that the early apocalyptic writings were just … wishful thinking on the part of the writers?jamison wrote:2. The Jews wanted someone like Moses to free them from the oppressive Romans, just as Moses freed the Isrealites from the Egyptians.
exactly.jamison wrote:3. Latter-day Saints need to shift their view of the Messiah from the NT Jesus to the future Jesus. Yes, we need to live like Jesus did, but that does not mean we get beat up all the time. Even Jesus stood up against the money changers and Pharisees. He even destroyed the Roman Legion’s swine at Gennesert (Jews did not consume Pigs and historians claim that the swine herd belonged to the Roman legion that was stationed nearby. The devils who possessed the swine responded: “We are Legion”
Apocalyptic and Eschatological writing were very common among founders of restorationalist sects in the 1800s. Again, I think this is ‘wishful thinking’, combined with powerful rhetoric that motivates adepts to join up and be saved before the big event happens.Even Harold Camping recently….
jamison wrote:4. I’m for Jesus as the Lion of Judah who is a militaristic messiah-to-come.
Is that your wishful thinking? Not meaning disrespect, but isn’t it attractive to all of us to think of the big guy coming down and fixing all this crap?jamison wrote:5. Members of the church are not ready for this as yet but I am and hope it happens in my lifetime. I’m tired of getting kicked down in life.
Indeed, and that’s what makes apocalyptic writing and thinking attractive.but the real message is that we take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ. What does that mean? When Moses asked Jesus (by LDS doctrine, the god of the old testament), what was his name, YHWH replied, “I am that I am. Tell them that ‘I AM’ hath sent you”. Jesus repeated this in John when he said, “Before Abraham was, I AM.”, and then he said to us in 3 Ne 27:27, “What manner of men ought ye to be? Even as I AM.”. The Name of Jesus Christ, the sacred name of the Jews, was “I AM” (YHWH-he is). Not, “I WILL BE”, or “I WILL COME”, or “I WAS”. I AM. present tense. What manner of men should we be? “I AM”, present tense.
The message of the savior, the meaning of taking upon ourselves the Name, is to authentically and completely BE. Not something. Not somebody. Not sometime later or to live on past glory, but rather, to be eternally and existentially present. Wishing for the future, even an apocalyptic restoration of Zion, is to take ourselves out of the present. It is not “I AM” any longer when we have our minds out of living authentically in the present.
@ wayferer, What I’m trying to say is that at church it seems that the TBMs are just going along with everything like Sheep. I’m the type of person that questions things, and rocks the boat. Jesus rocked the boat a lot For example Jesus rocked Judaism of the first century, the established religion of the Pharisees and Saducees at the time. Sometimes I feel that the Church becomes the Church of the Pharisees from outward expressions of members and false piety. Such things disgust me. When people are down to Earth and genuine, then I appreciate it more.
I had examples in my life that resembled how Jesus really acted. Yes Jesus was compassionate to many poor, and sick people, and the marginalized. Nevertheless, Jesus trashed the Pharisees, and turned their religion on its head.
What I’m getting at is many people in the Church are taught to smile and grin and bear oppression, and hatred, when there are times not to turn the other cheek, but to stand up for others that need advocates, and to fight evil in a battle royal.
I see too many passive TBMs, or aggressive ones for the wrong reasons. One such reason could be the numbers game. I got all my HTing done for the month and I got to the temple this month, and worked in the cannery. Now, I’m good until next month. Yet, did you really help the guy that was hurt, or the person that doesn’t have food to feed his family. Real Christian living means: Compassion, Sacrifice, and standing in the face of injustice. Jesus always had compassion for the sick, afflicted, and the poor in spirit and temporally. Jesus stood up to Pharisees, was brought before Caiphas, and Pilate to be condemned to die. We don’t necessarily need to be condemned to die, but how many people condemn the poor and the needy. How about the children and women who don’t have advocates. How about the kids with special needs that get made fun of because they are different. What about the kids from different racial backgrounds that get picked on because of the color of their skin, or the shape of their eyes. What about social injustice by an overreaching corporation, or an oppressive government that does not care for its people, and goes against their wills for its own ends. ETC. ETC. ETC.
Quote:it seems that the TBMs are just going along with everything like Sheep.
I disagree with that generalization quite strongly. It just doesn’t describe most of the people at church I have come to know personally. Sure, it might be accurate about some, but I just don’t see it with the large majority of people I know – regardless of how their views might be characterized.
It feels like this is a thread with two separate topics, but I’ll try to address both. Regarding the origins of the world and mankind, I think the Brethren are very happy with people reaching their own conclusions on this. There’s a great article in Dialogue about BH Roberts and James E Talmage making the case FOR ‘pre-adamites’ and Joseph Fielding Smith against. The conclusion of the debate was a ‘tie’ and the church said there was no need to have a doctrine either way. People are entitled to fit the Genesis story into whatever model works best for them and the church hasn’t legislated against it.
I’ll fish out the link once I’m on my PC, it’s a fascinating expose into how things really work at the top. There’s not always instant unity and GAs have strong opinions. It reshaped my understanding of how revelation happens. There’s no floating quill!
On the topic, I can appreciate you’re feeling very angry, frustrated and unsupported about your employment situation. The hope that one day in the future all will be equal under Christ sounds like it’s a consoling thought for you. If that works for you that’s great. I personally think it’s highly unlikely it will happen in our lifetime.
I’m concerned for you that you’re putting so much pressure on the church and church members to solve your job situation. I’m really not trying to be insensitive. I’ve not been out of work so don’t understand what you’re going through, but I’ve grown up in a place where the church is very small and unemployment is often high. I think the church already tries to help with CV/interview training, self-employment workshops. But it’s simply not practical for them to offer universal employment opportunities.
I think as long as you’re feeling angry at the church and the people you’ll struggle to move forward.
I apologise if I’ve misunderstood or offended you.
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