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While each of you have various views and each in some way varies from the party line I would offer this help. We know from article of faith #9
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that
He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.So while many of you have frustrations or disappointments with where things are at, I would encourage you to fight for your place in the church.
Who knows perhaps your differences will be found to be part of the things yet to be revealed. How sad it would be to find yourself on the outside looking in having lost complete faith only to find many of your issues corrected by God in time.
Hang in there
Bill
I guess many us have reasons why we stay, but i had since made it my motto to: live as if there is a God (that includes accepting the church as true), at least i’ll get rewarded in the end; and if there’s no God, then i’ll have nothing to loose. Meanwhile, I’ll just do my best to keep the faith…
If faith is that much of a struggle, your paradigm then works well for many. My only added input would be that I truly believe faith precedes the miracle, so always be pressing forward for better answers from God. Life is so weird in that I don’t know why God gives some people answers and others seem to get nothing when both parties are striving for real answers. Why does Paul get a vision on the road to damascus and another tyrant gets nothing? I don’t know. I also know saying what I am about to will infuriate some as they then say why don’t I get an answer?
but ….. I have had serious answers that reach beyond the realm of explanation. So for me I know he is there. That leaves a multitude unanswered but I have that anchor.
I realise many don’t have that and it is frustrating and I really wish I could share literrally my testimony on his exisitance…. but it doesn’t work that way. why???? I don’t know
but scripture reaffirms this in saying D&C 46
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
an example of this occuring
Acts 28:24
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
I would love to find a way to make the church work. As of right now…that has not/is not happening. Unfortunately, the church just isn’t going to work for everyone in this lifetime.
I hope I can find a pathway within mormonism…but sometimes when the pain outweighs the benefit…what is a person to do?
Your right the church is not going to be smooth for everyone. There will always be some who find themselves outside of the popular belief and norms of the church. But then again nothing was of value that isn’t worth fighting for. This site is about making it work. What helps me is to cut people slack for still being in stage 3 of faith and leaning more on their perceived authoritarian beliefs rather then the Holy Ghost. Too Many LDS believe what Elder Christofferson warned of in last conference of taking what they think is doctrine and making it their truth. In stage 3 they are doing what seems right. There are no gurantees that every member of the 12 has even moved out of stage 3 as we know most people get to stage 3 and stay there all their life. We want empathy from other members so we also have to extend it back. We all make up the body of Christ.
ex: a member I know shared in Sunday School during the lesson that Masons were evil. Another Brother and I softly shared that was an unuseful comment and did not constitute doctrine. She was a little put off but that doesn’t change that 40 other people got to see how false view spread and a caution to be careful what we assimilate into our beliefs
I make it work because it’s an important part of my own “I am” – which includes my wife and children. I make it work because I really do believe much of what I call “pure Mormonism” – much of which really is unique in ways that are important to me.
I make it work because I want to make it work.
I make it work partly because I don’t live in the same branch as someone else who comments here. That would try my faith seriously.
Sometimes, pain needs to be localized and cauterized – and that can’t happen if it is being exacerbated constantly. Sometimes, bandages need to keep the air out for a while – and those bandages can’t be ripped off regularly before the wound has healed. Hopefully, once a wound has healed enough to be toughened and more immune to that type of hurt and pain, what used to damage no longer does. Unfortunately, sometimes that process can deaden instead of heal. Thus . . .
Quote:“We claim the privilege of worshiping almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all (wo)men everywhere the same privilege . . .”
You do what you do to follow your own conscience, trusting that God will understand and reward you for it. It’s what we ask of everyone else; we just struggle to allow it for “our own”.
These posts go to show just how different we all are. At the end of the day, we each have to do what we see as the path that will eventually bring us the most peace, joy, and growth. That may or may not be in the church as I am not naive that only .02 percent of human poulation are LDS and if God plans to bring a lot of his children home his obviously has other ways then to join the LDS church in this life. That said I see this path as having a ton of value I stay because a) my kids need the structure b) I DID have spiritual experiences that led me to be a member of the church, although I find them hard to reconcile at times c) it would destroy my marriage if I left d) I don’t have anything better to go to given the costs to my family e) lately, I’m getting a kick out of teaching unconventional ideas in HP Group and getting rewarded for it, while facing the challenge of not crossing any lines. That part is fun. An f) reason is that I feel a certain amount of peace in really defining what kind of a Mormon I am now — and freedom in knowing that every word that falls from the lips of someone called to a position isn’t necessarily inspiration — totally liberating.
Quote:e) lately, I’m getting a kick out of teaching unconventional ideas in HP Group and getting rewarded for it, while facing the challenge of not crossing any lines. That part is fun.
I am planning on talking about stages of faith in Ward council tomorrow and asking if lying is always wrong. I too enjoy helping the saints find out what they think once they are forced to let go of the structure they thought they were forced to hang onto.
One thing we must be careful of is trying to get people to move from stage 3 to stage 4 faith… it is never good to force that process as it can backfire. One has to get there on their own with perhaps some soft nudges
Amen. We can’t push someone into Stage 4 without being sure they can make it to Stage 5. Stage 4 is cancerous in nature for many people, so I don’t push anyone into it who is happy and satisfied in Stage 3. I try to help those in Stage 4 move into Stage 5 (or even to return to Stage 3, if necessary), but I’m not encouraging people to jump into Stage 4 who aren’t at that point already.
That’s just cruel and unloving.
Stage 4 sucks. Many never get past it. For those in Stage 4, the best thing is to find a way to 5, but that path forward is different for everyone. I really like SD’s reason “f”. There’s great enjoyment in that approach.
Quote:I try to help those in Stage 4 move into Stage 5 (or even to return to Stage 3, if necessary), but I’m not encouraging people to jump into Stage 4 who aren’t at that point already.
Great vision…. I wish we could better facillitate those in stage four trusting someone enough to let them know that’s where they are. Too much distrust and unfortunately some of it is on good reason. Many LDS leaders are in stage 3 themselves, how can they assist stage 4.
I was always afraid while in stage 4 if I approached a leader for help who was in stage 3 I would kill his testimony… which was the last thing in the world I wanted to do. I would rather just struggle through it then to hurt someone else’s faith
Clashes between Stage 3 and Stage 4 individuals can be especially damaging. The Stage 3 is in full authority and protection mode, the exact things that Stage 4 is revolting against. Stage 3 must make an enemy of Stage 4 because it is a threat to that level of belief, black and white thinking. The mantra of stage 3 is “it’s all true or it’s all a lie.”. The mantra of stage 4 might be “Oh, crap. It’s not all true!”. That just leads to conflict between the two POVs, no matter how kind or well intentioned people are. Unfortunately, it’s probably up to the Stage 4 to take the high road which can be very difficult depending on emotional state. The person with the greatest understanding has the greater responsibility in the relationship. But it’s also true that most church leaders (of all churches) are such firm insiders that they will be Stage 3.
No answers, no visions, no real spiritual experiences. A lot of emotion wrapped up in a false blanket of spirituality. Unfortunately that has been my experience although I spent more time than most trying to make it work. So why would I continue to try and make it work other than for family reasons. If there is some trick then I am all ears, but frankly hearing stores of how God does this or that and impacts lives is frustrating to me, when my life is devoid of any real confirming experience. If it is my fault I am good with that. Just tell me how to fix it and I will give it another stab. AS it is nothing I have tried works. I just wont beg anymore for answers. While this probably doesn’t make you feel better scripture tells us there will be some whose experience is just like yours Quote:D&C 46
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
My only suggestion is to forget about works. I learned long ago works are not where salvation is found. Even The extreme tow the line man Elder Bruce R McConkie said
http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=597 “Abinadi struggled with this same problem in his contentions with the priests and people of Noah. They had the law of Moses, with its various rites and performances, but they knew nothing of the Atoning One. And so Abinadi asked, “Doth salvation come by the law of Moses? What say ye? And they answered and said that salvation did come by the law of Moses” (Mosiah 12:31).
After teaching them some of the great truths of salvation, Abinadi answered his own question: “Salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses” (Mosiah 13:28).
Salvation is not in works—not even in those revealed of God—but in Christ and his atonement.“ Might you listen to the following talk and let me know if it is of any help
http://byutv.org/watch/49475abb-10d4-4f45-a757-7000b9945468 also here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLXr9it_pbY Hope in some way this helps
Bill
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