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Testimony was so frustrating today. There are things leading up to this today, things I cannot go into in depth, but I will just say directly before sacrament, the EQP and the bishop did some chastising of me (and my husband) over things of which they have no experience and seemingly little knowledge. Then to sit through testimonies and listen to one wealthy man in the ward brag about his success and another woman in the ward cry as she begged the congregation for their prayers of protection as she was getting ready to take a vacation to another country… Poor thing Boo-hoo. I really had a hard time not thinking about all the things I wanted to say. As a very short history and I will be very vague for a reason in this public forum, I am now put in a position in my life where I must think one of two things. 1-God has abandoned me or 2-He is powerless to help me. I am entertaining the idea now of His hands being tied, but as that is in direct conflict with the things I was taught for so long about his omnipotence and ‘with God everything nothing is impossible;” I was definitely going more with the idea that He had abandoned me. I still struggle with this now– trying to come to terms with it. Among other things the EQP and the bishop told me I was sinning and should repent by not recognizing that God indeed was there like the “footprints” poem etc. Just to say– I really believe that is crap. He is not carrying me through anything. I also refuse to think he is allowing this to go on, as they said, because something good will come of it. Crap has been going on too long and no good has ever come of it and never will. Besides, both Joseph Smith and Jesus at different points cried to the heavens My God, why hast thou forsaken me? And if I, who am so much less than them, question the same– than I am guilty of such sin? Beside, wasn’t Jesus sinless?
Anyway, the short point is that I am in such a mess that every time I try to extricate myself from it, hellfire reigns down on me and things get exponentially worse even when I didn’t think it was possible for them to get worse. I never intended things to go wrong- I was trying to live quite righteously in fact- but I found myself disfellowshipped and can’t even take the sacrament and cannot be sealed to my youngest son in the temple and the kicker is that there is no way I can fix this on my own and things are in other people’s hands… things I have no control over and there is no end in sight- not for many years to come. I know that many of you are thinking it has to be more simple than that, that I can just start living the law and get my status back. It isn’t. So yes, I feel very much that God abandoned me. If He is omnipotent and can do all things then He could have at any point helped me with the tools to fix my mess and He hasn’t so yes, I feel HE left ME. Yet in so many ways I refuse to leave him.
The bishop at the ward I live in actually made things so unbearable for me that I had my records moved to a Portuguese speaking branch just so I could keep going to church. My Portuguese speaking bishop (well branch pres but I use bishop) is a good man and I will try to work it out but he really is clueless in regards to anything of what real trials are and cannot fathom my situation or anything I have been through and he and the EQP just say that if I would just figure out which law I am breaking and fix it things would get better. After all, their lives only get difficult when they stop reading scriptures or something and then they start again and everything gets better. Anyway- bonus here about switching to Portuguese speaking meetings is that I am not perfectly fluent in Portuguese (yet) and so it takes a lot of energy for me to listen to complex things, so the great part is that if I get turned off about what is being said, it is much more easy just to tune out! It’s kinda awesome actually.
Anyway, as a general rule, I don’t spend a lot of time caring about what random people with whom I have no emotional connection think. I have always defied any sort of categorization or stereotyping. I am good with that. In fact I love it. But I really wanted to stand up there and say some things. It wouldn’t be so much to defend against the people who would judge me, but more to address the people who also felt abandoned by God. We are so judged by others who have not had 1/10th of the adversity we have. They can talk of their unshaken testimony and their blessings and how good they are and how they know that God is there for them, and in the same breath criticize us for being weak. Yet though— what does it say about people like us who even though for whatever reason God has abandoned us or in whatever way is not there for us, WE DO NOT ABANDON HIM? We are trying so hard to hold on to whatever we can to make our relationship with Him work. We are not trying to find reasons to fall away from the church. On the contrary, we are desperately trying with everything we have to hold on. Perhaps our strength exceeds many of theirs.
But as I am disfellowshipped, I am not only not allowed a voice, but if I were to say such things to any of them, I would be labeled a heretic/apostate ex’ed so fast. I would be lucky to survive being run out of that meeting with torch and pitchforks. There is no freedom of speech in church. So because I couldn’t say it there, I say it here. I don’t really expect any one here to help me fix anything with this- just venting among people who I think might be able to relate. Thanks for listening!
Honestly, there’s nothing I really can say as advice, since I don’t know anything of substance about the overall situation. I wish I could offer something constructive on a personal level, but all I can do is ask if you have sought professional help outside the Church. Rag Doll, you present some new issues here, but I find it a bit difficult to respond and give support without knowing why you feel abandoned and what led to the restrictions on you in the church and why your BP feels you are still sinning (if that is what you meant). I’m not asking you to necessarily share the details here in a public forum if you don’t want to. But I simply wanted to let you know that support is what we are all about here, but that it’s simply difficult to give such support without understanding the content of the issues. It can lead to making assumptions like Ray did above about key experiences that led you to this point. As far as feeling frustrated in sacrament meeting goes — a lot of us feel that way. Cwald has expressed that a number of times. I personally struggle with excessive boredom and how the meeting is targeted to adults and not even a portion at the kids, making my kids hate sacrament meeting. And with my new lens on life and the church, I find every sacrament meeting has statements which I have to ignore, let wash over me, etcetera because I no long support them. However, there are also strong moments as well and I now try to focus on those.
For example, last week I learned that the two years of work I have been putting into a Phd funded by my work will not contribute to my career and expand my teaching opportunities. A change in policy has led to this problem. There were some management mistakes in giving unclear criteria as well….and further, a previous year and a half of work I did toward a different degree — a Master’s certificate in an area I have been teaching is also worthless. All that time, all that money, and I thought I was nearly done….except for my research and dissertation courses. I had put myself in a very strong position and job security position. And I have sacrificed so much of my time to get to this point, many long hours at the expense of my liesure and my family, many mornings up at 4 am and going to be late.
And to make matters worse, my work isn’t going to help with the additional funding to switch to a more relevent discipline. I am out over $10,000 dollars if I am to switch. I was angry at the situation, and started suffering from light depression. I could still sleep, but felt the kind of disorientation you feel when traumatic life events occur. I felt this sense of hopelessness and dread at all I have to learn going forward and all the time I must invest in a new PhD area I’m less excited about.
I went to church, and admidst a ton of objectionable statements, one women made a comment.
Quote:When we have problems, we can talk to others because its tangible. But really, people around us can rarely DO ANYTHING to help us solve our problems. They can help us sound out decisions etcetera, but they can’t solve our problems. Only God can do that, if he chooses, and so, we should talk to God about our problems.
Now, that may not be true for all people and situations. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t talk to us here – at all – in fact, I’d like it if you would continue. And I still believe discussion of problems is highly valuable here at StayLDS when one needs perspectives — I will continue to do so as I go about making my own decisions.
But for me, that day, in my current PhD/Master’s Certificate predicament, and the ton of work I have to put forward and how despondent I was feeling, I felt her advice spoke directly to what I needed that day. No one can help me with this problem. It is something that is my own to solve with God’s help if He chooses.
I know in your situation, you feel abandoned and that this story may not help, but for me, that statement from this woman was a cold drink in the middle of the church meeting desert, and it made going to Church worthwhile for that one bit of information. I left feeling glad I went, honestly, and also found in her a person I hope to get to know even better in public church contexts. She was highly intelligent and introspective and a person I hope to hear more from at church.
And that was the gold nugget of my church experience that day….Try focusing on your own gold nuggets. So much of life is sifting through the chaff to find the stuff that is of value, and be thankful for those small bits of knowledge that you CAN assimilate into your own philosophy and thinking from church.
The same thing happens when I read books — usually there are 8 chapters of setup and background and then two chapters of how-to that I can assimilate into my own life and act upon. Church is a similar experience in my view. Look at is a panning for gold, and be grateful for the gold nuggets. Its not easy and I share your frustration, honestly.
RDS, sorry you are going through a tough situation, and feel as if there is “no way out”. yes, at times I have felt this way…and since the words of the EQP and BP aren’t working for you, Ray’s suggestion of professional help is kind of important.
You pose a dualism in this statement: “1-God has abandoned me or 2-He is powerless to help me”. i would like to propose that there is a middle way here: since one member of the godhead, the Holy Spirit, is your constant companion, s/he is with you, but for whatever reason you feel disconnected from him/her. Second, god’s power is through influence, not force…so without the connection, you cannot avail yourself of that influence. how you lost that connection is unimportant right now. to say that the lost connection is a result of “sin” or lack of diligence is unhelpful…even harmful.
I like how you point out that even christ, at a given moment, felt abandoned by god. he was both fully human and fully god, yet at that moment, the two sides of his nature had become detached. how often is it that we become detached from our own divine nature? this is the disconnection of which i speak, and often, that disconnection is caused by physical things.
regardless if who or what we think god is, the reality is that god works through our own minds and hearts. this means that the last six inches of our personal connection with the divine happens within our heads: our natural neurological processes are responsible for carrying the divine connection, regardless of its source. when our neurological processes are impaired for whatever reason, our connection to the divine suffers as well.
just like being able to act in a physical sense requires a healthy body to at least some extent, the ability to act in a spiritual sense requres a healthy brain. brain chemistry can become radically altered through stress and other factors, and needs to be cared for. our perception of reality, being altered by an unhealthy mental state, affects every decision we make–that’s why we often need professional help to stabilize the brain before the mind and spirit can address our challenges.
once we address the physical problems with our brain chemistry, we are better capable of thinking for ourselves and feeling the spirit confirm the right things to do. thus fixing the brain is the first step, and the subsequent steps of meditation and prayer then can be effective in sorting things out.
all this is just fom my own experience…i am not a professional, but have seen the benefit of addressing my own mental issues before being able to see the divine.
I appreciate all your thoughtful comments. I realize with what i said with many things you are flying blind. You do not know me much yet and there is so much I can’t say and that makes it hard. Thanks for trying though and caring. To answer the question, yes I have sought help inside and outside of the church. Every agency I could think of in fact. As far as professional counseling, I have been to only LDS counseling- I don’t mean just bishops etc but through LDS counseling services. Two different ones both told me I am incredibly mentally healthy and resilient especially considering what I have been through. Both told me they didn’t see the need to keep seeing me. I just needed to fix my situation and good luck with that. That’s why I sought help from different agencies not related to mental health outside the church meant to help people like me. Sadly the system is quite inadequate, especially for my unique situation, so I had to come up with a plan B. I am working on plan B its just going to take so long on my own that I worry about the damage in the interim. But it is what it is. I don’t see what the point is to try another counselor as there is nothing I can change in my thought process to make it happen any faster. Also, even though because of the subject of this forum I know I might come across as negative or unhappy I am quite the opposite. I don’t complain so much in real life! Lol! I am essentially a very happy and grateful person but caught in a very negative situation. So chemical treatment would be unecessary.
I know I am being vague and I know it makes it hard for anyone who is trying to understand to do so, but I do have to be vague for a few reasons. First, its a very long an complicated thing to explain. Its alot of negativity to go into for no good reason. It wont fix anything. Also, I don’t really need advice on what to do with it as I already know the only things I can do and everything I have tried so far and what doesn’t work and why. However, the biggest reason I can’t say anything is because since it is a public forum if the things I write are read by the wrong person it could be very bad for me.
Basically unless god were to throw me a lifeboat at this point I will just have to keep swimming to shore which will take me a few years. I am working on it. I just mourn the losses i am suffering along the way. Time does not seem to matter to God as he so plainly states so often so He seems to be OK with letting me stay here in this mess amidst so much destruction. I just hate it because time DOES matter to me and in fact the next few years are completely critical because we only have such a short time with our kids and what happens in their childhood DOES matter. Anyway that’s enough of stressing you guys out with riddles!
I am here on this board not to fix my situation because it would not be realistic, but to help reconcile my feelings about where I stand with my issues with the church. To that end you all have been very helpful. Thanks to all for listening and caring.
Thanks for the clarification. All I can offer are platitudes and personal advice about the generic issues – and I’m sure it doesn’t help to say that I’ve found freedom of speech in my own church experiences. Of course, that is framed as tactful, careful, thoughtful freedom of speech – but that’s true of any group setting. For example, if I tried to express everything I feel at work – or even somethings indiscriminately, I would find myself out of a job really quickly.
I just wanted to add for SilentDawning-that really sucks. I know how painful it can be when things you work so hard for don’t pan out. It is much like a death. When my business crashed, I it felt almost (but not quite) as if one of my children had died. I recognize no one will solve my problems. Of course it would be great if a white knight would come to my rescue but I know that is not realistic. But I am finding that talking is helping my state of mind anyway. At least I know I am not alone with much of what I think and feel. In a climate where non questioning conformity is the only acceptable way, it can lead to such feelings of isolation. Thanks to all for that.
If anyone is much more curious- there is a reason I chose that name. She is a character from my all time favorite movie- before it was a cult classic. I identify deeply with her. The only real difference is I am not so shy.
May I suggest as a panothesis, that God doesn’t really care about the details of our lives? The gods have abondoned all of us…to a certain extent…and allows us to search and find a our own path.
IOW, I believe in the small gods, not the big God, that meddles with humans and find car keys etc.
The gods don’t care. IMO. Find your Chi. Find karma. Find peace. Stop worrying what others believe and what the church says…UNLESS….that pathway is what you need to find peace. Then you must do what you have to do.
Does that make sense?
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I have thought of that as a possibility. Don’t like it- but the universe doesn’t care what people I like huh? I have generally thought it was silly to believe God would use His divine energy to help people find car keys or bend the laws of physics to help people get to work on time. My eyes had been open to such an extreme amount of human suffering throughout the world and time that it seems so egocentric to think otherwise. But I did want to believe that the really big stuff– the stuff that to some large extent forces a person to survive or die spiritually– that he would care and would do something. Yet though, the perspective that I have gained about human suffering continues to grow and while I thought I understood, I was perhaps still being quite egocentric. My suffering pales in regards to really most of the human race, not only a select small population as I guess I thought when I saw through myopic eyes. I see now that entire nations suffer and live lives of nothing but pain. Who am I that I should be so favored? It may be that God does indeed not care. IDK.
I am trying to find the middle path here that works for me. I am not ok with thinking he (or they) does not care at all, but evidence suggests he is certainly not there for us to the degree than most LDS Americans were taught. There are many good thoughts from very smart people on this board that I am considering to find what I believe now. Workin’ on it. Thanks for your input.
Maybe you just need to redefine “care” when it comes to God. For example, maybe this life, while important for us in the here and now, really isn’t that important to God who looks at an eternal existence we simply can’t comprehend. Maybe our eternal lives are so much more comprehensive and complex than we know that, in the grand scheme of things, we will have much, much longer to get where we want to be than we realize – and, so, this moment in time, while important, isn’t “all that” in His eyes. Maybe, in that light, what seems uncaring and even damning in this life has a different purpose in the scope of eternity.
I don’t know any of that. It’s just speculation and supposition – but it illustrates, I think, how we can change SO much simply by changing how we define “simple things”.
RagDollSallyUT wrote:
I have generally thought it was silly to believe God would use His divine energy to help people find car keys or bend the laws of physics to help people get to work on time. My eyes had been open to such an extreme amount of human suffering throughout the world and time that it seems so egocentric to think otherwise. But I did want to believe that the really big stuff– the stuff that to some large extent forces a person to survive or die spiritually– that he would care and would do something. Yet though, the perspective that I have gained about human suffering continues to grow and while I thought I understood, I was perhaps still being quite egocentric. My suffering pales in regards to really most of the human race, not only a select small population as I guess I thought when I saw through myopic eyes. I see now that entire nations suffer and live lives of nothing but pain. Who am I that I should be so favored? It may be that God does indeed not care. IDK.RagDoll,
A few months ago, I was feeling particularly angry with God. In the sermon on the mount, Jesus says
Quote:7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
(New Testament | Matthew 7:7–11)
In light of my experiences, and considering the place of opposition in this life, I thought to myself “My Father will give me a stone if it suits His purposes.”What a lonely thought!
As I was pondering this, I felt the prompting that “That may be so, but I will give you tender mercies in the meantime, if you ask.”
I have yet to plant this seed to see if it brings forth fruit, but it has given me hope.
One other thought Quote:My Portuguese speaking bishop (well branch pres but I use bishop) is a good man and I will try to work it out but he really is clueless in regards to anything of what real trials are and cannot fathom my situation or anything I have been through and he and the EQP just say that if I would just figure out which law I am breaking and fix it things would get better. After all, their lives only get difficult when they stop reading scriptures or something and then they start again and everything gets better.
The idea that keeping the commandments will always bring happiness and prosperity, and it’s opposite, that if you are experiencing trials, you must be sinning, is an insidious and evil teaching. It is not true. I grew up on the Wasatch Front, and was taught this for years. This belief is damaging to our relationship with God, and it must stop.
Sorry, I get really worked up about this…
👿 turinturambar wrote:The idea that keeping the commandments will always bring happiness and prosperity, and it’s opposite, that if you are experiencing trials, you must be sinning, is an insidious and evil teaching. It is not true. I grew up on the Wasatch Front, and was taught this for years. This belief is damaging to our relationship with God, and it must stop.
Sorry, I get really worked up about this…
👿 I think the philosophy is true within a limited range of experiences. Clear violation of commandments (stealing, crime, violence) does lead to misery. And hardwork, love, helping and teaching others often improves our happiness.
But does it always — definitely not — just as turinturmbar (TTB) suggests. In fact, I am going to address this in my Sunday lesson next week. The statement by George Albert Smith that loss of faith comes from not obeying the commandments. As others have pointed it out it can also come from:
a) Extreme hardship and adversity when living the gospel very well.
b) Finding disturbing historical facts
c) Seeking a spiritual answer and never getting one, which makes one question Moroni 3:5
d) Mental illness and hardship
e) Temple Marriage Breakups
It’s good to keep the commandments, but I don’t agree for one second that keeping commandments always leads to happiness, and that doubt is always the result of commandment-breaking.
I feel sometimes my life has large obstacles to overcome, and support from others, and supporting others is a big element that helps me keep perspective on my situations. A quick thought that came to me as I read the thread:
A while ago SilentDawning made some good posts on a Univ of Penn website that I have found interesting, because it does not mention on “silver bullet” to help fix problems (i.e. pray, counseling, or whatever), but had 5 elements of finding happiness:
(see website:
http://www.authentichappiness.sas.upenn.edu/Default.aspx ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.authentichappiness.sas.upenn.edu/Default.aspx P – Positive mental health – doing things to keep oneself positive minded is helpful, like keeping our bodies fit, it helps us deal with life
E – Engagement – what are we engaged in that gives passion to life, that we overlook the obstacles because we are focused on our passion, something we can do and do well. This is where church can be important…we can have callings and be anxiously engaged in a good cause.
R – Relationships – one of the best well known methods to turn from being down to being “up” is talking with others and having meaningful relationships that provide us with support. Church can often provide this as well.
M – Meaning – When things happen, we like to assign stories that help us cope, stories about the meaning behind things or what we can draw from it to teach us things in life. Church can also help sometimes, but not always, define a good story that eases our suffering. We must be careful not to assign false stories that mess with our minds later as we experience reality. But having meaning in life of who we are and why we pass through trials is important to make sense of life. But it is a process.
A – Achievements – It is good to find skills or talents you have, and set goals to achieve what you can. Running marathons, losing weight, having hobbies, excelling at work, being good dads/moms to kids. These things bring us joy in life. We cannot have them 100% of the time, but we should strive for moments of achievement that help us get through the lows in life.
RDS – As you evaluate your life, do you see certain areas you can work on one at a time? I wonder if you have appropriate relationships (family, church, kids, friends) that you can develop that can help you. We certainly can try to support from our posts, but real life face-to-face can be really important.
Just a thought.
SilentDawning wrote:turinturambar wrote:The idea that keeping the commandments will always bring happiness and prosperity, and it’s opposite, that if you are experiencing trials, you must be sinning, is an insidious and evil teaching. It is not true. I grew up on the Wasatch Front, and was taught this for years. This belief is damaging to our relationship with God, and it must stop.
Sorry, I get really worked up about this…
👿 I think the philosophy is true within a limited range of experiences. Clear violation of commandments (stealing, crime, violence) does lead to misery. And hardwork, love, helping and teaching others often improves our happiness.
Good point. Perhaps I should have said “Wickedness never was happiness, but the idea that keeping the commandments will
alwaysbring happiness and prosperity, and it’s opposite, that if you are experiencing trials, you must be sinning, is an insidious and evil teaching.” Maybe the subtlety of this idea is one of the roadblocks to understanding and applying it.
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