- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Well, I feel like I tried…and failed today. I didn’t really want to go this morning to begin with. But I got up and went dutifully. I left in the middle of Sunday School because I just felt stifled. I feel discouraged and sometimes I wonder what the heck I’m doing going back to church again. Part of me feels crazy for doing it, because there is a part of me that feels like I am giving up something that is so much a part of me that it’s ridculous. I can’t help but think that there seems to be no place for homosexuals in the church. The doctrine is so family centered, and we are so rarely talked about. I wish that they could just come out over the pulpit and talk about it! They are losing so many members because of their refusal to talk about it and because they treat us like we don’t exist, like we are some kind of lepers. There is no place in the doctrine that makes room for homosexuals. It’s either you get married, or you spend your ENTIRE life celibate. Sometimes I think the price they are asking us to pay is just to dang high. They say that straight members are held to the same standard, but they aren’t. STRAIGHT MEMBERS HAVE HOPE THAT THEY WILL MARRY SOMEDAY, SOMEONE IN THE CHURCH. WE DON’T. It is hopeless and it’s just a shame that it is this way. I don’t think it is something our Savior would approve of and I’m just really losing faith in the whole thing. I know I haven’t been going to church that long, but I already feel like I’m giving up so many of my friends and sacrificing a ton. And for what? So I can be happy? I’m following the commandments and paying my tithing and going to church and reading my scriptures, and am I happy? Not really, no. I feel like most people are either laughing outright at me, don’t care about me, or think I’m just crazy for doing what I’m doing. I feel like the church is asking me to do something that is impossible, and they are asking too much of me, to just supress these feelings, forget about them, and pretend that they don’t exist. Like somehow if I ignore them they will go away. Well guess, what? They won’t. Sorry for rambling. I am just upset with the church and their stand on this position. It is unreasonable in my eyes, and like I said, there is no hope for homosexuals in the church. I don’t even know if I will be going in two weeks (since the Brigham City temple dedication is next week) because I just feel like giving up. I am horribly discouraged. At the same time, it is the only church/religion I really believe in. It feels the most complete to me, and let me tell you, I have shopped around. Thank you all for listening. I’m so sorry to read how hard it was and is, even though I understand intellectually that it is so hard. All I can say, given everything you wrote, is that you need to carve out a relationship that works for you – no matter what that is. It can be as unique or standard as necessary – but it needs to be yours.
A HUGE part of that needs to be the recognition that breaks are OK – both for a week or two and during a particularly hard talk or lesson.
If you have an understanding Bishop, it might open his eyes to what you are hearing if you quietly walk out when the talks and/or lessons get to be too much. Make eye contact as you rise to leave, then simply walk out for the rest of the meeting time. As understanding as he might be, he probably isn’t as attuned to the subtle messages that are so clear to you.
I know it is asking a lot, but many people can’t know what it’s like unless homosexual members are willing to help them realize it. They can’t understand the turmoil unless they know homosexual members really do have testimonies. Many people can’t understand what they don’t see and hear – and, for example, won’t understand the hurt of saying single-parent families are a threat to marriage until a single mother or father walks out in the middle of a statement like that. Kyle, I want you to know that although it may not feel like it at times, you have a lot of allies (especially me). I am gay, and I have felt and thought all of the things you described. Quote:there is a part of me that feels like I am giving up something that is so much a part of me that it’s ridculous.
It sounds like you are leaving behind an entire social network, and that is hard no matter who you are. I would encourage you not to entangle that with whether the Church is worthwhile or not, and have patience while developing a new network.
Quote:
I can’t help but think that there seems to be no place for homosexuals in the church.I wonder about this all of the time. Sometimes, it’s justified, and at other times, it’s one of those “cognitive distortions” they talk about in psychology (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion ). There is no doubt that there are a significant number of homophobic people in the Church. But there are a lot of our brothers and sisters who are on our side. The Church is a lot better about this issue than it was forty years ago, and gets better all the time. So until policies and culture change, sometimes we just have to metaphorically tell the homophobic ones to s#$%^ themselves, because this is OUR church, too.Quote:we are so rarely talked about. I wish that they could just come out over the pulpit and talk about it! They are losing so many members because of their refusal to talk about it and because they treat us like we don’t exist
I agree. It needs to be addressed more, and over the pulpit. We need to hear from our leaders that they love us (and none of that “we love you, but…” crap), and that we belong, and leaders need to explicitly model this behavior. Maybe like Ray said, we need to tell our bishops and SPs this directly, and write letters to apostles.
Quote:Sometimes I think the price they are asking us to pay is just to dang high. They say that straight members are held to the same standard, but they aren’t. STRAIGHT MEMBERS HAVE HOPE THAT THEY WILL MARRY SOMEDAY, SOMEONE IN THE CHURCH. WE DON’T. It is hopeless and it’s just a shame that it is this way. I don’t think it is something our Savior would approve of and I’m just really losing faith in the whole thing.
I have been thinking about this. I have come to the conclusion that “they” have absolutely no right to ask us to live a celibate life. Only One has that right. He knows the pain of being asked to do something so difficult, lonely, and painful. He understands. He suffered it right with us. And He is the only one who has the right to ask it of us. I agree that the Savior might not approve of others asking us to make this sacrifice. They have
no ideawhat they are asking, and they have no intention of living the same way themselves, and many refuse to have empathy with us on the issue. But Our Savior knows. And He can ask. I encourage you to stop caring about what straight members of the church have to say about how they think we haveto live our lives, and get a testimony of what Jesus wants you to do. He is the only one with the moral authority to ask you to live a life of celibacy. On the hope thing…I agree with you. It can feel hopeless at times. But there is more than one way to meet our needs for companionship, emotional and physical intimacy, and sexual release than marriage or dating. Something to think about. There is no reason that this life should be bleak–it’s filled with so many wonderful people, places, experiences, and ideas! And along with the joys of this life, we have hope in a resurrection and eternal joy in our Savior.
I agree with Ray about taking things at your own pace and taking breaks when you need to. I fully support your desire to receive your endowment. It has been a great blessing in my life.
Many will mock you path, or be indifferent to your struggles. But it is
yourpath. And you have individual freedom of conscience. I am still in the Church because I, too, “feel it is the only church/religion I really believe in.” Shall we not go on in such a great cause? PM me if you like! It hurts me to hear your pain. I felt something in common when you mentioned leaving halfway through a meeting. I have done so myself on many occasions. I would suggest trying what I did — I went into a room and studied something spiritual and then tried the next meeting. I realize that this is only a small piece of the pie, but it helped. And I’m glad that we have others on this site that have experienced what you experience and can share their thoughts. Quote:Sometimes I think the price they are asking us to pay is just to dang high. They say that straight members are held to the same standard, but they aren’t. STRAIGHT MEMBERS HAVE HOPE THAT THEY WILL MARRY SOMEDAY, SOMEONE IN THE CHURCH. WE DON’T. It is hopeless and it’s just a shame that it is this way. I don’t think it is something our Savior would approve of and I’m just really losing faith in the whole thing.
Right now, I really don’t have hope that I will find someone in the church, so it’s not just gays that have that problem.
SamBee wrote:Quote:Sometimes I think the price they are asking us to pay is just to dang high. They say that straight members are held to the same standard, but they aren’t. STRAIGHT MEMBERS HAVE HOPE THAT THEY WILL MARRY SOMEDAY, SOMEONE IN THE CHURCH. WE DON’T. It is hopeless and it’s just a shame that it is this way. I don’t think it is something our Savior would approve of and I’m just really losing faith in the whole thing.
Right now, I really don’t have hope that I will find someone in the church, so it’s not just gays that have that problem.
truly.hypothetical scenario, though. you choose to date and marry a nonmember. as long as you don’t violate the law of chastity, there will never be any church action against you. before getting married, you can bring your nonmember girlfriend/boyfriend to church, go to activities, be openly affectionate, and no action. if you’re gay, you hold hands or kiss your boyfriend/girlfriend, and you’re on the way to a church court. let’s say you live in a jurisdiction where marriage is possible: you date and marry your gay partner, and (theoretically) you don’t have sexual intercourse/sexual relations until marriage. will you remain a member?
this may be the reason the church is so opposed to gay marriage: given that the law of chastity explicitly states that you should have no “sexual intercourse” (“sexual relations” after 1990) except with your husband or wife to whom you are legally and lawfully wedded, then there is absolutely no LDS revelation or clear scriptural stricture preventing gay sex within marriage. in theory, a married gay couple who never violated the “law of chastity” should retain full standing within the church.
let’s see if this computes…
I am sorry kmullin. 
Quote:hypothetical scenario, though. you choose to date and marry a nonmember. as long as you don’t violate the law of chastity, there will never be any church action against you. before getting married, you can bring your nonmember girlfriend/boyfriend to church, go to activities, be openly affectionate, and no action. if you’re gay, you hold hands or kiss your boyfriend/girlfriend, and you’re on the way to a church court.
Definitely – this is the contradiction. Although I think parents holding the hands of children (or the disabled), and women holding each other’s hands occasionally wouldn’t be frowned on. Men holding each other’s hands, definitely.
Quote:let’s say you live in a jurisdiction where marriage is possible: you date and marry your gay partner, and (theoretically) you don’t have sexual intercourse/sexual relations until marriage. will you remain a member?
Well, the people would be legally married, but I don’t think the church would recognise that, anymore than a Muslim convert who had four wives.
I was told that the church would recognize the marriage of a muslim who has four wives as long as it was according to the laws of his land and he lived in that land. Does anyone know for sure? This would then have interesting implications for gay marriage and the church in the US wouldn’t it? I agree with your points wayfarer. I do feel like even if you are gay, and legally married to your husband and you choose to have sex, then no action should be taken against you. You are legally married and he’s the only one you are giving the business to, so no action should be taken against you. I would imagine this may be the case in places like D.C or California, but not so in Utah, at least not yet. My feelings on it are that the church will have to do something about gay marriage eventually. They will be forced to change their position just like they did on blacks and the priesthood because gay marriage will become legal everywhere at some point, I’m pretty sure. At that point, the church will be forced to change its tune. How the church looks at the law of chastity now is how I see it. As long as I’m legally married to my husband and he is the only one I’m giving the business to, I should be able to hold callings and attend the temple just like any straight member who is totally faithful to their spouse in marriage. Just because society doesn’t view my marriage as the same doesn’t make it any “less than” or “inferior” of a straight couple’s marriage. Gay marriage is already legal in some parts of Europe. Gay marriage has been legal in Canada for a while now but I don’t really know how the church here is dealing with it other than not performing weddings. Canucknuckle wrote:Gay marriage has been legal in Canada for a while now but I don’t really know how the church here is dealing with it other than not performing weddings.
So if a gay couple is legally and lawfully wedded in canada, and choose to be church members, however unlikely that may seem, are they excommunicated from the church?Legal question- if gay marriage was legal in all states… couldn’t the church be sued and judged against for taking action against practicing gays? wayfarer wrote:Canucknuckle wrote:Gay marriage has been legal in Canada for a while now but I don’t really know how the church here is dealing with it other than not performing weddings.
So if a gay couple is legally and lawfully wedded in canada, and choose to be church members, however unlikely that may seem, are they excommunicated from the church?That my friend, is the million dollar question.
They now say that SSA is not a sin. That the issue is one of chastity. However, if legally married chastity isn’t the problem.
So then, is it the act of gay sex that is the real sin in the Church’s view? If so, why do they use the chastity argument in the first place? I’m confused.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.