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I suppose the purpose is this post is to vent. I welcome advice, but I mostly seek understanding and the knowledge that there are others experiencing the same trials that I am. Oh, but how we love our darling TBM spouses…. My husband’s family is highly sensitive to the subject of garments. They have had many loved ones leave the church in very angry and self destructive ways, and it always “began” (in their minds) with the decision to stop wearing garments (for example, my MIL’s mother had her kids watch while she burned her garments in a bonfire in the backyard and henceforth came home drunk every night), so it was understandably difficult and frightening for my husband when my discomfort with garments began to become apparent.
Nevertheless, he is being as supportive as he knows how to be, and our conversations on the matter have evolved from “I’m afraid I must insist that you wear your garments at all times,” to not mentioning it. Certainly an improvement.
So the other day I was rather excited about an outfit I was planning to wear (I am such a girl
🙄 ) to dinner with a few close friends. It’s silly, I know, but it was the first opportunity that I felt like I didn’t have to pretend that I was wearing garments even if I wasn’t, and it felt important. The only people we would be seeing were my old roommate, who is aware of my decision, her non-member boyfriend, and my husband.Before we left, my husband politely asked me to change my clothes. The skirt wasn’t excessively short, but it was not long enough to give the impression that I was covering garments. I changed, and we didn’t discuss it further until the drive home. In the car, he thanked me for changing and complimented how attractive I am when I am dressed modestly (I think his latest tactic is positive reinforcement for appropriate behavior, lol. One of these days I’m going to have to tell him that I’m not Pavlov’s dog). I joked that he was lucky that it was his birthday so I had to do whatever he wanted.
We sat in silence for a few minutes when I guess he sensed some turmoil in me and asked what was going on in my head. I explained that I had been trying to think of an appropriate analogy for my feelings on modesty and garments, as my feelings on both are inseparable to me. I told him to imagine having a person that you love but with whom you have a very painful and stressful relationship. After years of miscommunication and shame, you finally decide that you can’t progress in life as it is and you can’t heal until you have some sort of space or break from that person. You are granted permission to take a break and absolutely as much space as you need, so long as you stay locked in this very small room with this person. Additionally, you are both tied up in such a way that you can’t even move your head and you are facing each other, so feel free to not talk and keep your eyes closed the whole time, but if you open them he/she is right there.
Okay, so it’s not a perfect analogy, but whatever.
We discussed it further. I cried a lot
🙄 . He reminded me that I have a responsibility to dress modestly because of all the males who might see me who can’t help but think pornographic thoughts. Also, when I don’t dress to the right standards it makes him very uncomfortable and prevents him from feeling the spirit when he’s around me (In the past, he’s also mentioned that when I don’t wear garments he feels less attracted to me. and his “fire for [me] goes out.”). I do make an effort to not dress very differently than I used to. I still cover my stomach and thighs and shoulders and such, even if I don’t personally find bare shoulders to be pornographic. It’s very difficult for me to speak while crying, but I tried to explain to him that Icannothave shame or guilt be a motivating factor in my decisions right now. I am not emotionally capable of dealing with it; I will break down. I don’t have the strength to take responsibility for anyone’s morality but my own. Perhaps someday, I will be healed enough that I can dress with consideration for men who are overcoming a pornography addiction (for whom I have nothing but respect), but that time is not now. His response was that if that is the case, he has to request that we not go out in public at the same time anymore. Essentially, “I guess I can’t make you do anything, but I just can’t be seen with you.”
I don’t quite know how to process this. I’m trying to remember that this is
extremelypainful for him as well, that he’s already changed a great deal in response to the changes that I’ve made, that these issues are a very central part of the religion that is such a big part of his life, and that his profound faith and adherence to that religion is a central part of him which drew me to him in the first place and which I love and admire about him to this day. But… he doesn’t want to be seen with me?
Ow.
I know that many of us are finding our own ways of adapting our marriages to our new situations. I eagerly await your responses.
my suggestion is that you both speak to someone who… 1.) has a testimony of the gospel and lives it
2.) recognizes this dynamic of faith and how fundamental thinkers react and can bridge the conversation of agreeing these things he holds are important but also helps him see his behavior and requests are hurtful.
Sometimes when we feel frustrated or backed into a corner we say things that we don’t really mean. Sometimes we mean them — in a way and at some level — but in other circumstances we would have kept them to ourselves and worked it out on our own, and nobody would ever have been the wiser. Sometimes those things can be really hurtful when they come out. Do your best to chalk it up to human nature and try to ignore it. Your husband is struggling as well, it sounds like, and it’s not easy for any of us. Building a relationship can be an important and difficult part of your spiritual journey.
I find myself walking a thin line way more than I should or would like to, and there’s never a good ending when I slip up. Keeping it bottled up doesn’t help, and I guess that’s why, for many of us, having a place like this to vent can be really helpful.
This is a hard one because he’s taking a hard line with the garments things. First, I would make sure you work hard at meeting his emotional needs — his innate emotional needs. This will strengthen your marriage. Do the Emotional Needs Questionnaire at http://www.marriagebuilders.com and find out what his most important needs are…make sure you really meet them well. This is to strengthen your marriage in other ways — beyond the Church stuff — so the relationship can withstand the Church turbulence.I only share this because my marriage, so far, has survived my decision not to wear my garments all the time. I graduated to non-garment underclothing the other day and bought a week’s worth — a huge step for me. I feel so liberated now that they fit me better than anything the Church produces. This upsets my wife, but I make sure she never sees it as much as possible. But the marriage is still intact and reasonably strong as I meet her emotional needs for financial support, family commitment, lately, being more attractive, and also conversation. With the exception of family commitment (which is only partly a Church thing) none of these things are church related.
So, the marriage is withstanding my new relationship with the church, non-TR holding status etcetera. I honestly believe that if I was a poor provider, didn’t take responsibility for the kids at home, was obese, and ignored her need for conversation, the church things would be huge, huge issues.
As you can’t seem to talk about it constructively with your husband for the time being, I would claim the freedom to dispense with garments when he’s not around; you have to weigh the costs of not wearing them with the benefits. Is it worth the stress it causes in your marriage to not wear them? The comments like he doesn’t want to be seen in public with you when you don’t have them on? etcetera? Let him adapt slowly and be non-confrontive about it.
I personally dress as I please much of the time as you can’t tell whether I’m wearing them or not when I have on long pants and my work clothes (white collar garb). I pick shirts that are opaque so you can’t see through them. And I always wear garments to church functions and other church related things, or when my wife can see me. And I change where my wife doesn’t have to see what I’m wearing.
This avoids the issue — until the day comes my wife accepts it.
I’m sorry, but he seems like he’s going super over board in the things that he says to you and how he acts. Can’t be seen with you because you don’t wear garments? Finds you less attractive? (Aren’t garments hideous looking anyway? I don’t wear them so I have no idea) If I had a wife and she didn’t want to wear garments, I would let her make the decision not to wear them and support it. It just seems to me like he’s tearing you down a lot. Especially with the whole, “We can’t go out together anymore if you don’t wear garments” thing, and “causing men who are overcoming a porn addiction to struggle”. That seems really extreme to me. I’m not sure what advice to give you in this situation, but just hang in there! Hugs! He’s feeling his world being shaken – hard – and he’s pushing back in an effort to keep it from shattering. At the very least, understand that is what’s happening – even while understanding that you are completely right to be bothered greatly by it. I don’t like at all his response, but it actually is “natural” given what you shared about his past.
Frankly, my immediate thought was to suggest professional marriage counseling. I’m fairly certain he won’t want to do that at first, but a mother’s descent into Hell and perceiving the possibility that it’s happening to a wife can cause powerful, powerful trauma.
Actually what he is doing is really simple. I know it becomes a broken record talking about Fowler’s Stages of Faith but he is obviously stage three here. He is defending the institution which he feels would also take this hard line. He sees it as black and white, me versus you, good versus evil. What he doesn’t realize is that the institution itself would not ask him nor imply that he take this approach, as it is wrong. His stance seems to be based outwardly on what he thinks the church expects of him rather then inwardly asking himself what Christ would do and what that means he should do and inwardly making a decision that this is not a black and white issue and should not be treated as such. He needs a member who is faithful to sit down with him and tell him to knock it off in a loving way that also supports his standards but also implores him not to force his wife into his line of thinking. He needs to understand his behavior would also be considered unacceptable by the church. He doesn’t think that right now. He think it is his wife versus the institution and he is taking the instituions side. He does not need to approach it this way.
Also He loves loves you and deep down his inappropriate behavior is simply a defense mechanism and it is not personal though it feels that way.
DBMormon wrote:He needs to understand his behavior would also be considered unacceptable by the church. He doesn’t think that right now. He think it is his wife versus the institution and he is taking the instituions side. He does not need to approach it this way.
Thanks for saying this in this way. My initial reaction is nowhere near this charitable.
I agree with the marriage counselor advice. Sounds like he’s got some messed up ideas from how he was raised. Among all of my acquaintance and family, I cannot imagine a spouse saying such shaming and controlling things. I am just emphasizing to you that this is not normal behaviour, nor is it standard TBM behaviour. There’s a difference between believing in the church and being Stage 3 and unquestioning in your thought process and how you treat other people and how you yourself internalize the role of church standards and guidelines. I have heard it said that shame is something you inherit from your parents. Guilt is theoretically earned when you violate your principles or values, but shame is when someone manipulates you by using extreme measures (often insults, physical distancing, silent treatment or shunning) to deprive you of love and approval in order to control your behaviour.
Quote:He reminded me that I have a responsibility to dress modestly because of all the males who might see me who can’t help but think pornographic thoughts.
Sexist rubbish.
Quote:Also, when I don’t dress to the right standards it makes him very uncomfortable and prevents him from feeling the spirit when he’s around me
Is it just me or is this not a normal thing to say to your spouse? Who talks about being able or unable to feel the spirit around their spouse? And who goes around 24×7 assessing whether or not they feel the spirit. I’d like to try that with difficult clients at work: “Can you tone it down, a bit? I’m having a hard time feeling the spirit when you are yelling at me about quality.”
Quote:(In the past, he’s also mentioned that when I don’t wear garments he feels less attracted to me. and his “fire for [me] goes out.”).
Well, if THAT doesn’t give you body dysmorphia, I don’t know what will!
Quote:I do make an effort to not dress very differently than I used to. I still cover my stomach and thighs and shoulders and such, even if I don’t personally find bare shoulders to be pornographic.
Does your husband require that you remain fully clothed when intimate? (please don’t answer!) Because if so, then your husband really is the only man who has no good reason to care how you dress in public since he is your sexual partner.
Quote:I don’t have the strength to take responsibility for anyone’s morality but my own. Perhaps someday, I will be healed enough that I can dress with consideration for men who are overcoming a pornography addiction (for whom I have nothing but respect), but that time is not now.
It’s silly to expect you to take this on.
Quote:His response was that if that is the case, he has to request that we not go out in public at the same time anymore. Essentially, “I guess I can’t make you do anything, but I just can’t be seen with you.”
So his loyalty is to random men on the street vs. you? Or he just cares what others think of him by association with you (what I suspect)? If it’s the former, I’d point out the stupidity of that argument. If it’s the latter, he’s going to have to grow up someday, but it takes people time to get over caring what others think of them.
Quote:these issues are a very central part of the religion that is such a big part of his life,
No, these issues are not central to the gospel.
Quote:and that his profound faith and adherence to that religion is a central part of him which drew me to him in the first place and which I love and admire about him to this day.
You loved him for his blind obedience? Or is there another quality I’m missing?
Sorry to be so grouchy about this, but sistas gotta stand up for sistas!
Wow, I am very sorry that this is such a trigger for your husband. This is exactly what we have been discussing on the garment and modesty threads. The church ends up giving the message that women are responsible for in part men’s salvation ie “pornographic thoughts” and that a women’s amount of spirituality is directly related to how she presents her body. People are right that what your husband is stating is incorrect, however many in the church culture would completely support and agree with his point of view and assumptions. How can what women wear not be extrapolated to women’s spirituality when talk after talk places so much emphasis on the ever changing church standard of modesty. (When did a shoulder become immodest?) Then throw in the fact that most believe they have covenanted to wear the garment itself and it is easy to see how your husband thinks like this.
Your husband may also feel that your eternal marriage is in danger. However it sounds more along the lines of what Hawkgirl was saying, that he is most upset when others would be able to realize that you were not wearing garments and the ensuing judgments both on you indvidually and as a couple. What you two are not perfect and have issues and questions? Noooooo
Counseling is a good idea. Also if garments are pretty much the only TBM standard that you are modifying emphasize that fact. He may be worried that you are chucking the WoW or are leaving the church.
Perhaps you can find a compromise for the time being, maybe a middle road in which you do not wear garments but wear things that could ALMOST be garment appropriate when out with him. Your husband may not be ready to face the fact that the person he married is changing and that by default he will have to change as well. Try to take into consideration that he will have to mourn the loss of his vision of what he wanted your marriage to be. Imagine if he came home and dramatically altered some aspect of your marriage you thought was concrete and how you might react. I am not saying that his judgments are correct, they are infuriating! However until the church stops linking womens spirituality to what women wear and implying that they are responsible for others thoughts he will culturally feel correct in his beliefs and will need time to adjust. You may also need to compromise more in this area if can not get past his experiences with his mom.
Good luck!!! This is a very tough situation for both of you. Hopefully he will realize the difference between church culture and standards and the true gospel. Hang in there!!
It sounds like his reaction might come more from family trauma than from being TBM. He might not be able to hear your reasons for not wearing the garment because can only think about what he’s seen in his family. When this comes up, I would emphasize that you are not his grandma, your reasons for not wearing garments are different than hers. Her bonfire was a symptom of her self destruction, not the cause.
I agree that marriage counseling can help facilitate your discussions. If you go with an LDS counselor I would meet with them one-on-one beforehand to discuss your point of view. I know a lot of times men go to counseling sessions with more composure than their wives. You don’t want your first session to give the impression that he’s a patient husband with an apostate wife. He needs to heal from his family trauma so he doesn’t manipulate you to conform to his expectations.
I have no great perspective on this one because I am in the same boat. I haven’t had the courage to do anything about it though because I am afraid of just such a confrontation. I have been told many times that the first step toward cheating is taking off your garments, and if you do so you are leaving yourself open to that. Perhaps your husband has heard this as well. If so, I could see how he has a very real fear for his marriage with you because he has been taught that people that stop wearing their garments cheat more.
I still struggle with how to wear my garments, but right now I wear them frequently, and do it not as a religious symbol, but as a sign of respect to my husband, to whom it is very important that I wear them. I’m not sure how long this will last, but that is where I am right now.
rebeccad wrote:
I have been told many times that the first step toward cheating is taking off your garments, and if you do so you are leaving yourself open to that. Perhaps your husband has heard this as well. II heard this growing up yet wearing garments didn’t and doesn’t stop many men and women in my hometown from sleeping around.
🙄 rebeccad wrote:I have been told many times that the first step toward cheating is taking off your garments
I agree! It is very difficult to have a satisfactory affair without taking off your garments!
🙄 😆 Seriously though, Meoclew, I wanted to thank you for posting this.
A few days ago DW and I were in a similar discussion but ours revolved around tithing and church loyalty and how to “not confuse our kids” and some tension over how I may react if I am denied the privilege of baptizing my kids etc.
Anyway yesterday I started a discussion about your post and I think that it helped. I think that your issues are different enough to help us not take it to personally but similar enough to see ourselves in you.
As a woman, I think my wife somewhat identifies with you in the desire to be able to have ownership over her own body. As a TBM, I think that she identified somewhat with your husband over his fears and pushback over the garments issue. Yet, she could also see the need for compromise between the two of you in dress standards and also the hurtfulness of the shaming comments your husband used.
I felt likewise. As a StayLDS’er I can identify with you but as a former TBM and a current husband I can also identify with your husband. I do not excuse his actions…I can understand some of his thought process.
Perhaps it is sexist to say this but if my wife was doing inappropriate things I believe I might feel judged for not maintaining order in my own house.
Quote:Of course, He expects fathers to preside over, provide for, and protect their families. But the Master has asked for much more. Etched in sacred scripture is a commandment to “set in order thy house.” Russell M. Nelson 10/2001
In the D&C several men are rebuked for not having their houses in order. I do not think it strange that LDS men may see this as part of their duty, a measure of their faithfulness and acceptability as men of God.Anyway, the thoughts posted have been very good so far. I just wanted to share how our situation is both similar and different and how that has helped us try to see our own situation with more perspective.
Thanks again Meoclew.
I don’t think I want to respond to this thread…because as a husband, I don’t give a flying fidaddle what my wife wears as long as she is happy. I don’t get this guy… Pornographic shoulders? Give me a break…s&m, bestiality, group sex… That’s pornography… Shoulders? Not unless you’re a Taliban mullah…
AMEN Wayfarer!! (I know amen is used alot but I think it is appropriate for this!)
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