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Hello all, I’ve been snooping around here, reading posts and articles for some time and I’m finally taking the step of creating a login ID and introducing myself. I really enjoy this forum with its open mindedness and frank discussions while still providing support.
My ancestors go back to the pioneers and one ancestor was in the same company as Brigham Young when he entered the Salt Lake Valley. It’s not surprising that I was raised in a traditional, or conservative (not sure the right word) LDS home. My wife comes from strong LDS roots also and my entire family and most of my close friends are LDS. I’m married to a wonderful woman, have good kids. I graduated from BYU, served a mission, and was a full “traditional” Mormon until about 5 years ago, about which time I started to question aspects of my faith.
Various doctrines, political stances, and events in church history started to “not ring true” a few years ago. I question my integrity to myself and my children when I think of my doubts. Questions like “how can I remain a member in good standing” and “is it right to raise my children in this church” when I have these doubts. I worry about my relationship with my wife who has none of my doubts although she is very supportive of me. I wonder what she would do if I acted on my desire to back away from the church since she married me with the expectation of an “eternal marriage.” The fact that many of my family and friends are LDS means that I couldn’t ever fully leave the church if I wanted to. That is both comforting and frightening.
I love many aspects of the church. I love the value placed on family. I love the tradition of service, even if that service is usually directed inwards to other members. I love church hymns and music and listen to the MOTAB choir every week. I love the sense of hope that comes with believing in a personal, loving god. I love BYU football, although really do understand it doesn’t really have to do with the church. I value the built in network of friends wherever I go.
On the other hand I struggle with the time commitments and the seeming intrusion of the church in every aspect of my life. I really struggle with Joseph Smith marrying other men’s wives. The evolution of the 1st vision bothers me – it just seems that something of that magnitude would remain more or less constant in one’s accounts. Some of Brigham Young’s teachings really bother me. The temple and garments seem strange to me but I’ve always viewed them as highly symbolic and aren’t overly problematic. I *do* struggle with answering some of the questions I have to answer to get in the temple. The idea of “I’m your leader and you have to do what I say” bothers me to no end (exaggerated, but the sentiment is often present). Admittedly not all leaders have that attitude. From a logical and scientific standpoint I think it’s very possible that we (humans and earth life) are the result of a random and meaningless quantum fluctuation. I find that thought extremely depressing and try not to think about it, but in the scientific parts of my thoughts I’m probably more of a deist than anything, maybe agnostic. The older I get the more I think this life is really all there is and that I should fully enjoy it now without regard to some hoped for afterlife.
State of my testimony is this: I try to be as open about my beliefs as I can without sharing my doubts with others. So far I’ve adopted the view that perhaps as an “insider / leader” I can influence the church for the better, at least locally, and for my children. I wonder if I’m being honest, though, and feel like I’m hiding in a way. I seem to have adopted some of the views espoused in the excellent article “How to Stay” on this website, but I haven’t decided if it’s justification / dishonesty or a legitimate framework for church participation. I have this nagging feeling that I’m not being intellectually honest. I sometimes want to leave the church but from a practical standpoint I think my level of happiness would actually go down due to friction in my marriage, family, and friends. I think the programs in the church have made me a better person than I would otherwise be in spite of their deficiencies. I understand how some church programs and teachings present challenges to others and I wish we were more inclusive as a church.
I don’t really expect this forum to dramatically change me much, but I wanted to share in case it helps others. Just typing this introduction has helped me understand myself a little better. It’s been comforting to know that others are struggling like me and that I’m not alone. Maybe introducing myself and occasionally contributing will help others while at the same time I try to find myself.
I’m traveling and have little time right now, but I wanted to welcome you and thank you for your introduction. Welcome. Thanks for registering and sharing your story so we can hear your thoughts. They are well laid out. It seems life has us go through certain transition periods, often when we think we’ve figured things out and it is steady sailing.
You have some new choices to make, and they aren’t easy ones, but you seem to be searching slowly and thoughtfully, considering the costs of choices.
Many here have expressed similar questions around how to be authentic and with integrity when you have legitimate doubts. There are multiple paths on how choose to work through that.
Thanks for sharing. I look forward to learning from your posts.
I love your intro…sounds like a lot of us… welcome Welcome to the site :0) A little piece of advice with this site: If you take a break from your typing and come back to finish a post it is a good idea to go ahead and highlight and copy all of what you just wrote. Sometimes when you go idle the site likes to boot you off and it would be a shame to lose such wonderful thoughts that you had written. I make it a habit to go ahead and copy all of my posts before I send just in case.
This site seems like the right place for you. You have the desire to stay within the church.
Realistically I find it very inspiring for a member of a bishopric to have doubts and still remain. Just because you don’t fully believe in the things that you once did doesn’t make you a liar for choosing to fulfill your duties.
As mentioned since many of your friends and family are LDS it would be hard to fully leave this church. It seems like you had and still have good experiences in the church. There is nothing wrong with you remaining still. Perhaps in time you will find your own middle ground where you can feel comfortable within the church even with lack of true belief. Perhaps you will have a more figurative or appreciative belief in the overall teachings and morals of the church.
Feel free to post and participate in the forum. It seems that you have many thoughts and stories to share.
Welcome
GREEN[/color] “> [/color] [/size] Sorry if this is a duplicate. What I thought I had sent doesn’t seem to have arrived. Roadrunner, could you give some concrete examples of being open about your beliefs without sharing doubts? I have not found that to be possible yet.
I would like to hear what anyone has to say about children. Where are the lines between parental responsibility, children’s agency and honesty?
Finally, does anyone in the know have the sense that thoughts such as those expressed at staylds are having any impact? I feel increasingly pessimistic about going forward (i.e., having a temple recommend on honest terms) in the church.
Thanks.
Welcome from a fellow agnostic deist. Welcome to the site. So much of your intro reminded me of what it is like to grow from child to adult, and I really do think it’s much more common for members to reject specific unsavory aspects than to accept them all hook line and sinker. Teens often see their parents with freshly critical eyes for the first time ever. They begin to see their family as outsiders do. They vow to let go of the aspects of their home life or their parents’ methods that they don’t like. They rebel by standing up to authority and fighting hypocrisy. As an adult, I apologized once to a man who was one of my long suffering teachers in my home ward for what a snotty rotten teen I had been. He said to never apologize for such a thing because only by establishing my independence like that could I become an adult. He said it’s a necessary part of maturing. I remember thinking what a refreshing thing to encounter: an adult who wasn’t at all threatened by insubordinate kids, one who didn’t make it all about him, one who saw past the attitude to the adult I was becoming and who loved me for it and supported me, even though my behaviour was often disrespectful and even rude. We can learn a lot about how to deal with disaffection from this example, but those who are still dealing with their own immaturity and insecurity are threatened by those who are making their way.
One suggestion for trying to figure out how remain believing is to see how others put the puzzle together. There is no one better then Teryl Givens in my opinion in separating what is true from all the peripheral things that happen and are said
this podcast is awesome
http://mormonstories.org/terryl-givens-an-approach-to-thoughtful-honest-and-faithful-mormonism/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://mormonstories.org/terryl-givens-an-approach-to-thoughtful-honest-and-faithful-mormonism/ I love part two and three the best. with three being just super!!!
At the end of the day the Holy Ghost rely has to be where truth is found, but Givens gives some ideas I have never thought of that fit well into how I needed to better view the church.
Welcome…I too was a Bpric counselor and didn’t really fit in with my belief system. I enjoyed working with the people who were effective managers and seeing how they thought. But yes, things can bother you and its hard to reconcile them when you are in a position of authority. I teach HP Group and I have found I can be open about my beliefs without sharing doubts by
a) Asking questions that frame my beliefs as just that — questions — not assertions. “Why is it that self-reliance is an important principle in our church, but that this principle seems to take a backseat to tithing when the two principles are in conflict?”. Let people answer the questions for themselves, or give a rebuttal question under the guise of Socratic questions, and then move on.
b) Share openly beliefs that are not black and white on such matters as the Sabbath Day, whether geneology must be done now, or can wait a bit, family priorities or family size.
c) Openly encourage the membership to change their most extreme cultural beliefs by citing situations where they do harm — such as in the case of non-members who are alienated because they show up to church improperly dressed — even after baptism. Shore up yoru statements with comments from the GA’s that support your position, as well as the Book of Mormon which discourages throwing people out because of the coarseness of their apparel.
I did a lesson on that once and it met with no resistance whatsoever. In fact they continue to keep me teaching because “I make people think”. Strange. It’s been like a Seinfeld episode where George tells an interviewing manager he’s an idiot. And as a result, the manager says “Hire this man”. I’m exaggerating with the use of the term “idiot”, but you get my drift.
Roadrunner, thank you for the introduction & welcome. I can identify with alot of the things you wrote. For example,
Quote:I question my integrity to myself and my children when I think of my doubts. Questions like “how can I remain a member in good standing” and “is it right to raise my children in this church” when I have these doubts. I worry about my relationship with my wife who has none of my doubts although she is very supportive of me. I wonder what she would do if I acted on my desire to back away from the church since she married me with the expectation of an “eternal marriage.” The fact that many of my family and friends are LDS means that I couldn’t ever fully leave the church if I wanted to. That is both comforting and frightening.
I believe we are hardest on ourselves. God is far more understanding than we give him credit for. Our family members & church membership is probably somewhere in the middle. For me, the reality is we must be true to what we feel & believe. Our journey can be an adventure if we let it.
Mike from Milton.
Welcome, this seems to be a good place for you. I am on a similar journey, and this forum has been a great support.
Dear Ann, To answer some of your questions.
Could you give some concrete examples of being open about your beliefs without sharing doubts? Maybe I should have said I’m trying to share my beliefs without imposing them.
• Two days ago in Sunday School the idea of evolution came up and how it’s contrary to doctrine and just plain wrong. I raised my hand and said that there is no official church position about evolution and that I know many people in good standing who support it altogether. I also said there are a lot of things assumed to be doctrine and which aren’t at all and that it’s our job to figure that out.
• Last week my 14 year old daughter asked me if canned green tea is against the WofW and if she could try it. We sat down and read the part talking about hot drinks and I said I personally don’t see how it’s against the word of wisdom (nobody seems to know where the coffee / tea interpretation came from and it’s not documented) – and though I don’t drink it, that it’s her decision.
• My family is going to visit the Mountain Meadows Massacre site in a few weeks on our trip to Utah, and maybe drive through Colorado City. I plan to use it to teach my older daughters (12 and 14) about some unsavoury aspects of church history and so they aren’t surprised by it in the future.
• When I bear my testimony in church I leave out mention of Joseph Smith because while I know he gave us the BofM, I struggle with him much past that.
• This summer I was asked to teach about the priesthood to our YW. One of the YW asked why women can’t have the priesthood and essentially my answer was “I just don’t know – and probably nobody does.” Not a particularly inspiring answer, but I think it’s the most correct answer that I know of.
• Last night in family home evening we were talking about the BofM and I said that’s one of the stronger aspects of my testimony and that other aspects aren’t as strong.
• My oldest daughter started high school this year and my wife and I pulled her aside and told her this is the time to figure out who she is and what she wants to do with her life. We laid out a few basic rules like absolutely no drugs, alcohol, or sex, but she had to start figuring out things for herself including her own decisions about the church, what kind of career she wants, what type of person she wants to be, etc.
• When a meeting starts talking politics I try to steer it elsewhere. I live in a politically conservative area and this is hard to do sometimes.
• A funny, true story. My Bishop asked me to draft a letter for people wanting to leave the church formally (a couple of folks had asked and he’s a good man and tries to respect their agency). I was done drafting the letter when my wife walked in and saw what I was writing. She thought I was writing it for myself and she didn’t get angry but simply said, I wish you would have told me you were doing it. I am open with my wife and don’t try to convince her of anything.
My thoughts about parental responsibility. I’m no expert but I just try to tell the truth whenever I’m asked a question, of course some judgement is required when dealing with children. I take turns on weekly dates with my kids and I sometimes ask them if they have any questions and we discuss them frankly and I try to tell them when I don’t understand something. I feel it’s my job to share as much truth with them as possible and to acknowledge when my understanding and/or historical interpretation seems unclear.
Regarding staylds and if it’s helped anyone. I can only speak for myself that it’s helped me. For some reason the article “How to Stay” resonated with me. The temple recommend questions seem very general (vague?) in some cases and I don’t know if that’s intentional by those writing the questions, but I feel that I can honestly answer them in that context.
Roadrunner wrote:• Two days ago in Sunday School the idea of evolution came up and how it’s contrary to doctrine and just plain wrong. I raised my hand and said that there is no official church position about evolution and that I know many people in good standing who support it altogether. I also said there are a lot of things assumed to be doctrine and which aren’t at all and that it’s our job to figure that out.
• Last week my 14 year old daughter asked me if canned green tea is against the WofW and if she could try it. We sat down and read the part talking about hot drinks and I said I personally don’t see how it’s against the word of wisdom (nobody seems to know where the coffee / tea interpretation came from and it’s not documented) – and though I don’t drink it, that it’s her decision.
• My family is going to visit the Mountain Meadows Massacre site in a few weeks on our trip to Utah, and maybe drive through Colorado City. I plan to use it to teach my older daughters (12 and 14) about some unsavoury aspects of church history and so they aren’t surprised by it in the future.
• When I bear my testimony in church I leave out mention of Joseph Smith because while I know he gave us the BofM, I struggle with him much past that.
• This summer I was asked to teach about the priesthood to our YW. One of the YW asked why women can’t have the priesthood and essentially my answer was “I just don’t know – and probably nobody does.” Not a particularly inspiring answer, but I think it’s the most correct answer that I know of.
• Last night in family home evening we were talking about the BofM and I said that’s one of the stronger aspects of my testimony and that other aspects aren’t as strong.
• My oldest daughter started high school this year and my wife and I pulled her aside and told her this is the time to figure out who she is and what she wants to do with her life. We laid out a few basic rules like absolutely no drugs, alcohol, or sex, but she had to start figuring out things for herself including her own decisions about the church, what kind of career she wants, what type of person she wants to be, etc.
• When a meeting starts talking politics I try to steer it elsewhere. I live in a politically conservative area and this is hard to do sometimes.
• A funny, true story. My Bishop asked me to draft a letter for people wanting to leave the church formally (a couple of folks had asked and he’s a good man and tries to respect their agency). I was done drafting the letter when my wife walked in and saw what I was writing. She thought I was writing it for myself and she didn’t get angry but simply said, I wish you would have told me you were doing it. I am open with my wife and don’t try to convince her of anything.
My thoughts about parental responsibility. I’m no expert but I just try to tell the truth whenever I’m asked a question, of course some judgement is required when dealing with children. I take turns on weekly dates with my kids and I sometimes ask them if they have any questions and we discuss them frankly and I try to tell them when I don’t understand something. I feel it’s my job to share as much truth with them as possible and to acknowledge when my understanding and/or historical interpretation seems unclear.
Regarding staylds and if it’s helped anyone. I can only speak for myself that it’s helped me. For some reason the article “How to Stay” resonated with me. The temple recommend questions seem very general (vague?) in some cases and I don’t know if that’s intentional by those writing the questions, but I feel that I can honestly answer them in that context.
Roadrunner,Really great stuff. Excellent answers — I loved the evolution thing.
As for the TR questions, please look at a
post and series of answersRoadrunner, I like what you said about teaching your children:
Quote:I’m no expert but I just try to tell the truth whenever I’m asked a question, of course some judgement is required when dealing with children. I take turns on weekly dates with my kids and I sometimes ask them if they have any questions and we discuss them frankly and I try to tell them when I don’t understand something. I feel it’s my job to share as much truth with them as possible and to acknowledge when my understanding and/or historical interpretation seems unclear.
I think it was me wayfarer was talking about when he said:
Quote:As a direct result of the survey, one of the members here struggling for years about the TR process was able to get a TR and really found joy thereby.
This survey helped me to really focus what I believe. It wasn’t about lying or directing my TR answers to get the “paper” but to focus what I really believe. I hope my beliefs evolve over time. By that I mean, develop more conviction about what is real & important for my spiritual growth.
For what it’s worth, you seem to be taking the right approach. Thanks for sharing.
Mike from Milton.
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