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First off, let me just preface with saying that this is a long introduction, and thank you to anyone who reads it beginning to end. I’m just kind of trying to sort out my thoughts in a safe environment. I’m a 27-year-old mother of two, married to an amazingly supportive TBM, and was (up until now) a lifelong TBM – the product of a long line of TBM (on both sides), ranging back all the way to the earliest church days in Kirtland and Nauvoo. My great-great grandfather was the first branch president in the state of Florida and was assassinated on the way home from a church conference when he refused to renounce the church, so I’ve always felt this very strong loyalty to the church my ancestors sacrificed for. I grew up in SLC in a very conservative (religiously and politically) LDS home. I’ve always been a very spiritual person by nature, so my testimony came easy for me most of my life. I always told my parents that if we weren’t Mormon, I could be a preacher. It was just very easy for me to believe and get spiritual confirmation of my belief, although I do remember being absolutely mortified when hearing Ezra Taft Benson declare in General Conference that a woman’s place was in the home (I was eight).
I absolutely, positively believed in the gospel “with every fiber of my being,” as the cliché goes. I grew up incredibly sheltered, no exposure to alcohol, sex, or independent ideas. I still remember the first time I met a Democrat – my high school seminary teacher, no less – I cried out in disbelief “But you’re a good person!” This kind of opened up my eyes to the kind of close-mindedness that’s prevalent among the membership of the LDS church. After graduating high school, I ended up having a sexual relation and eventually moving in with a guy I met in my Singles Ward, in all places. The relationship was incredibly awful and only lasted a few months, after which I spent a year and a half in church probation, kind of halfway in, halfway out, but still with a strong testimony and tons of guilt. Over and over I learned about the graveness of sexual sin (next to murder) and realized I had sinned big time and I eventually was welcomed back into full fellowship, which was a very spiritual experience for me.
At age 21, I moved outside of Utah, and met another TBM, whom I married in the Mesa temple. I remember, before going through the temple, reading lots and lots of temple prep material and having long conversations with my Bishop and Stake President about what goes on inside. I thought I felt prepared and was eager to go through and make additional covenants. I took out my endowments the day before we were married, and despite my intense preparation, it really freaked me out. I remember the part where, in the middle of the ceremony, they asked if anyone wanted to leave before they actually took out the endowment, and I had the urge to run out of the room as fast as I could. Everything in me told me to run. This was definitely not the amazing, beautiful, culminating spiritual experience that I had been told since Primary that it would be. It was just plain weird, full of chanting, odd clothing and thinly veiled threats of secrecy. I didn’t feel the Spirit at all, and instead felt all the feelings they say are not of the Spirit – anxiety, anger, confusion, depression, fear. I especially objected to the last covenant of being willing to sacrifice all for the Church – not for Jesus or the gospel, but for the institution. The wording of that always struck me as kind of “cultish,” despite my testimony in the veracity of the Church. After the end of the endowment, while in the Celestial room, I started bawling. I told my mom, sister, and grandmother, all of whom had flown from out-of-state to be there, that there was absolutely no way I was going back the next day to get sealed, especially in all those crazy clothes. This was not what I wanted my wedding day to be. I also supposed that my RM, Elder’s Quorum Counselor, TMB fiancé would not consent to marrying outside of the temple. And my family had all flown in from out-of-state and I didn’t want to disappoint them (plus, this is what I’ve always wanted, right?), so I went back and got married the next day, trying the whole time to focus on the fact I was marrying the man of my dreams and not the actual ceremony.
Although we’ve had a good marriage, I’ve always had problems with my husband and I’s sexual relationship because I feel dirty, or like I’ve sinned after being intimate. It’s something I’m working on getting over. I feel like that goes back to the year and half I spent on church probation as a Young Single Adult (and also my formative YW years), being taught that premarital sex is so sinful and awful and next to murder and feeling so truly sorrowful and awful and dirty for almost two years while I was on probation, but now I’m supposed to suddenly forget all that and turn on the “sex is a wonderful, beautiful, sacred thing” switch like magic? The first time my husband and I had sex on our honeymoon, I kept having to chant “legally and lawfully wedded, legally and lawfully wedded” over and over in my head and telling myself I wasn’t sinning. Every time I would put on garments after sex I would feel dirty and base, like I was the “natural man” King Benjamin talked about. The Church does a great job of programming young people to feel awful about their inherent, God-given sexuality, and it’s hard to undue the damage.
As I got older, I started to attend college, had children (while still in college) and really began to get an outside-Utah perspective on the world. At this time, we were living in Tennessee, so not exactly Mormon country. I was still TBM, but able to be exposed to a lot of different ideas on religion and politics. I began to shift from my parent’s ultra-conservative political views to my developing my own. Neither the Book of Mormon or the Bible seemed to support the political views that seemed to be inherently linked to Mormon culture. I vowed to start thinking for myself from that point on. I think that kind of marked a turning point in my life, because I started to really analyze what I believed in and started develop views that were different from mainstream Mormonism. I started studying political science in college, and eventually switched my major to International Affairs. I felt that God had given me the talents I had to better the world, not just to stay home raising children, and I dreamed of working in humanitarian aid or global development, which I viewed as the most Christlike thing I could do with my life. I became more liberal, but stayed “in the closet,” so to speak so as to avoid conflict with my LDS ward members and friends. I did, however confide my feelings to by TBM husband, and found he was much more supportive than I had imagined. He has also switched political leanings to a more moderate approach, is skeptical of some church claims (he has a degree in Biology and so approaches most things with a scientific approach), and still remains my strongest supporter, even though he is a full believer.
When the gay marriage debate hit a fever pitch with California’s Prop 8, I had to be honest with myself and admit that I didn’t agree with the church’s stance. I felt that it wasn’t my place to be forcing my religious views on others, especially those not of my faith. After all, I used birth control even though many Catholics viewed it as an abomination. I felt if Catholics didn’t have a right to legislate my personal choices, what right did I have to do the same thing to someone else? Deep inside, I had to acknowledge the fact that I might be wrong in my beliefs. What if I was wrong? How could I make a decision that would disenfranchise someone else based solely on my testimony? I could never live with that. Everything kind of started unraveling after that realization.
Slowly, I felt myself becoming more and more estranged from the Church. I started to question the “spiritual promptings” that I had been receiving my whole life. I came from a very emotional household, were spiritual expressions were linked to emotion. I began to wonder if Catholics had visions of the Virgin Mary and Muslims had visions of Mohammad and Mormons had spiritual experiences confirming their faith – we couldn’t all be right. What made my spiritual experience confirming Mormonism as the “only true Church” any less valid than a Catholic’s, or Jehovah’s Witness, or a Seventh-Day Adventist, or a Muslim’s? I noticed I felt the same “spirit” when I read Harry Potter or other great books as when I read the Book of Mormon. I felt the same strong emotions I had always been told were the Spirit during secular activities.
I’ve kind of always had some issues with Joseph Smith – for good or evil he was a very complicated man. I remember being in YW and hating the “deification” of Joseph – that everything out of his mouth was inspired. I especially loathe the hymn “Praise to the Man.” The only person I’ll be praising is Jesus, thank you very much. I remember, even as a child, hating the concept of polygamy, which I feel is evil to the core and destroyed families rather than creating them. All of these old doubts I had been harboring for years, many without even being consciously aware of them, started to bubble up to the surface.
I would start to question the Church, which would then send me into a downward spiral of guilt. I used to be so strong, how could I be doubting now? How could I doubt when my ancestors had been martyred so I could have a chance to have the gospel? Could I just walk away from that? How will I raise my children to be good, moral people without the gospel? Yes, I know it’s done every day by millions of non-member parents, but I don’t know if I, personally, know how to do it. How much pain and sorrow will my disbelief cause my husband? How can I maintain my family relationships? If I’m not LDS, who am I? What do I really believe? If being a member of the church makes me happy – even if it is a lot of hooey, it’s that something? I mean, even a placebo effect still feels real to the person experiencing it.
This has been my train of thought for the last three years. I’ve been through this roller coaster of cognitive dissonance, trying desperately to convince myself to believe, then just trying to suspend disbelief, then finally acknowledging deep down inside that I feel nothing at church, that I can no longer read the BofM without a healthy dose of skepticism. I can’t reconcile the history of the Church, its current political bias, its nontransparent financing dealings, its inconsistencies in “eternal” doctrine. I figured if I held on for long enough, “this too shall pass,” and everything would become clear and I could go back to being blissfully unaware, but it hasn’t. It’s only become clearer and clearer that a lot of this doesn’t make sense. While sitting in Sunday School , everything sounds so contrived, so make-believe, that I find myself angry and confused that I used to believe this, and so guilty and sad that I no longer can. I come home from church angry every week, except for the week when I teach RS. I love teaching because I get to teach a more moderate view of the doctrine and present an alternative perspective from the cultural orthodoxy. I have yet to be reprimanded and am often told I am very insightful into the gospel, which I find a little ironic.
As I’ve started to evaluate the Church’s positions, I’ve been growing more and more confused and even resentful; there was a lot that I wanted to do before I got married and had kids, but felt that I was being selfish and unrighteous by “not having my priorities straight,” as the Church teaches. Deciding when and how to marry, when to have kids and how many, how to be intimate with my husband- so many of my major deeply, deeply personal decisions were made in the context of the Church, and now I’m starting to see that following the teachings of the prophets in this regard did me no favors in terms of ultimate personal happiness or fulfillment. Although I don’t regret for a moment marrying my awesome husband (who is my very best friend) or having my beautiful children, it is challenging because both of my sons have autism – one is very mild and one is very severe and nonverbal. I’ve since dropped out of school to take care of them full time. I have regretted following the teachings of the prophets to marry and have children young (not delaying for school) which has made it harder for our family financially to dig ourselves out of our university-induced poverty, as well as made it difficult to have self-satisfying personal, educational, and career experiences that would have made me a better, more prepared mother to deal with the realities of parenthood. Becoming a happy, whole, satisfied person who is financially stable is something you should do before you set out to raise another human being. That’s just not something they teach you at Church. Instead, they make you feel like you are a sinner if you choose to delay marriage or children in favor of other priorities. I’m sorry, but I just don’t agree with that.
Recently, I had a complete breakdown and confessed the extent of my feelings to my husband, who has been amazingly supportive. I confessed my fear that if the church is a sham, our family is, in fact, not a “forever” one because there is no such thing. I’ve confessed my anger that I’ve always hated our temple wedding and have always wanted a redo in a civil ceremony. I confessed my anger at the church’s history, and my sorrow and confusion and guilt at doubting the legacy handed down to me by my pioneer ancestors. I shared my fear and confusion of not knowing who I am without being “Mormon.” I explained my fear about not knowing how we’ll raise our boys (ages 4 and 2) if I decide not to pursue a relationship with the church.
Finding this site and this message board has been so awesome for me, because I’m able to really take a step back and find a middle place. Maybe I’ll end up staying right here, maybe I won’t, but for now, it’s a start. It’s a place I can begin to sort out my thoughts and not feel so guilty or all alone. Thank you guys so much.
Newdirections, thank you for the introduction. As I read it, I was reminded for the following quote from the NT. Quote:1 Corinthians 13:11
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
I don’t mean to suggest, in any way, that you or your thoughts are childish. What I mean is, our thoughts & belief system changes over time.
It is all part of the concept of eternal progression. This site is a good place to “sort things out”.
Keep coming back. We want to hear more from you. (I’m glad to hear that your husband is supportive too.) It makes a big difference.
Mike from Milton.
Welcome to StayLDS. Thanks for sharing your story, it was interesting to hear. I agree that the Church really overdoes it with some of the guilt and shame surrounding sex. We talked about this and especially the idea that sexual sin is supposedly next to murder in the following older thread if you haven’t read it yet. Welcome Newdirections, On the one hand – sounds like you had a good and supportive family upbringing and now have a great marriage to a genuinely great guy (what a find!). To the extent that the church influenced those things, it sounds like it has been a positive influence.
On the other hand – it sounds like you have been on the receiving end of too much guilt and also taken some “priorities” to be gospel truth when they might not have fit your individual situation. To the extent that the church influenced those things, it sounds like it has been a negative influence.
I’m sure that raising your special needs children is a daunting and overwhelming task. It is completely normal to get worn out and even to wonder what life might have been like.
I feel strongly that in the end, the meaning that means the most to you will be the most helpful and enduring. This means that the part where you “started to really analyze what [you] believed in” can be the beginning of creating something of strength and beauty that you build alone with God. It is also scary and lonely – but I wonder if we have to go through these types of solitary journeys in order for that relationship to be personal and truly run deep and not just be something we picked up from our parents or friends or (insert “turn-key ready” worldview here). We have to build it brick by brick and take ownership for it.
Anyway, I want you to know that you are OK. You are acceptable. You are loved. You are following the programming of the One who lovingly designed you. Yes, there may be some occasional (or frequent) flies in the ointment but that is OK too. Take it slow and allow yourself some acceptance.
newdirections wrote:I’ve always been a very spiritual person by nature, so my testimony came easy for me most of my life. I always told my parents that if we weren’t Mormon, I could be a preacher. It was just very easy for me to believe and get spiritual confirmation of my belief, although I do remember being absolutely mortified when hearing Ezra Taft Benson declare in General Conference that a woman’s place was in the home (I was eight).
When I was about that age (5-
I always confused ETB with a black butler on a TV program – His name was also “Benson.” – So you were already way ahead of the game. 😆 It sounds like from a young age – you have recognized the pullings of your own unique (and divine) nature. This reminds me of someone that I very much admire, Joanna Brooks. When she anxiously emailed her parents to let them know that she would be speaking at an anti-prop. 8 rally, she received this reply from her father: ‘We want you to know we love you. You have wanted a more just and loving world since you were a little girl.’
More on Joanna can be found at the following links:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2951 I am in no way saying that you should be like anybody else or do what they do. I’m trying to say that it is ok to be yourself and listen to what your own heart (own spirit) is telling you.
I hope that you are able to participate here. We need new perspectives and experiences to keep us balanced (and you seem to have a talent for writing). But whatever your decision in this regard -know that you are never alone.
First off welcome to Staylds. I am twice your age, male, have 8 kids total and I can relate to so much you are saying. For me just knowing that there are other people out there that are feeling the same feelings give me a lot of comfort. I would like to respond to some of your comments and give you some of my feelings if that’s alright. Quote:It was just very easy for me to believe and get spiritual confirmation of my belief, although I do remember being absolutely mortified when hearing Ezra Taft Benson declare in General Conference that a woman’s place was in the home (I was eight).
After that talk my wife quit her job and we had three more kids and our income decreased and our debts went way up and I can assure you we were not living the high life. No vacations, crappy cars etc. It has taken me many years, a new wife, smarter money management and a change in thinking and planning but it has all worked out. Both my 1st wife and 2nd had to go back to school to get their degrees later in life to find decent employment and all of agree it would have been easier to just get it done before kids. We have really encouraged our own children to do that. Not that that helps you now in your situation but again you are not alone in your feelings.
Quote:I took out my endowments the day before we were married, and despite my intense preparation, it really freaked me out. It was just plain weird, full of chanting, odd clothing and thinly veiled threats of secrecy. I didn’t feel the Spirit at all, and instead felt all the feelings they say are not of the Spirit – anxiety, anger, confusion, depression, fear. I especially objected to the last covenant of being willing to sacrifice all for the Church – not for Jesus or the gospel, but for the institution. The wording of that always struck me as kind of “cultish,” despite my testimony in the veracity of the Church.
I went to the temple before my mission and had many of the same feeling the first time. I have been back many times and it did get easier and more understandable but only after a lot of thought. I have been dealing with my own faith crisis for a few years now and I don’t find the temple very inspiring but really not to objectionable either. I go for important events and I do find joy in being with others as they are married, getting ready for missions etc and we go for our stake temple trip about every 6 months and I like supporting my ward family but I don’t feel much of the spirit, if truth be told.
Quote:Although we’ve had a good marriage, I’ve always had problems with my husband and I’s sexual relationship because I feel dirty, or like I’ve sinned after being intimate. It’s something I’m working on getting over. I feel like that goes back to the year and half I spent on church probation as a Young Single Adult (and also my formative YW years), being taught that premarital sex is so sinful and awful and next to murder and feeling so truly sorrowful and awful and dirty for almost two years while I was on probation, but now I’m supposed to suddenly forget all that and turn on the “sex is a wonderful, beautiful, sacred thing” switch like magic? The first time my husband and I had sex on our honeymoon, I kept having to chant “legally and lawfully wedded, legally and lawfully wedded” over and over in my head and telling myself I wasn’t sinning. Every time I would put on garments after sex I would feel dirty and base, like I was the “natural man” King Benjamin talked about. The Church does a great job of programming young people to feel awful about their inherent, God-given sexuality, and it’s hard to undue the damage.
There are several good books to help with this and an excellent podcast on Mormon stories episode 214-216: LDS Female Sexuality with Jennifer Finlayson-Fife. I would recommend that you listen to it with your DH. It great information for him too.
Quote:When the gay marriage debate hit a fever pitch with California’s Prop 8, I had to be honest with myself and admit that I didn’t agree with the church’s stance. I felt that it wasn’t my place to be forcing my religious views on others, especially those not of my faith. After all, I used birth control even though many Catholics viewed it as an abomination. I felt if Catholics didn’t have a right to legislate my personal choices, what right did I have to do the same thing to someone else? Deep inside, I had to acknowledge the fact that I might be wrong in my beliefs. What if I was wrong? How could I make a decision that would disenfranchise someone else based solely on my testimony? I could never live with that.
My wife and I had that same conversation just last night along with a few other church related topics. She is a moderate and very much a cafeteria Mormon but she wouldn’t label herself that way and currently has little desire to study in any depth some of the issues I have right now. She tolerates me looking at the internet but just barely. I show her a lot of support in her job and I do most of the cookings so she doesn’t give me too much grief over my issues and I don’t want her to feel the pain and struggles and sleepless night I have gone through because of my faith crisis so I have taken every thing really slowly and to be honest I am very glad that I have. I have concentrated more on trying to figure out how to make it work that just getting mad, but there has been a lot of that too.
Quote:How much pain and sorrow will my disbelief cause my husband? How can I maintain my family relationships? If I’m not LDS, who am I? What do I really believe? If being a member of the church makes me happy – even if it is a lot of hooey, it’s that something? I mean, even a placebo effect still feels real to the person experiencing it.
Those are the big questions for me? I have felt some very real promptings and I have seen a lot of good come out of the church. Maybe it not “the one and only true church” in fact I don’t really believe that at all but it might be the right church for me. I’m a convert and I can assure you that if the church had not come along when it did I don’t think I would be the same person that I am today. I think I would have become an alcoholic like my parents.
Quote:This has been my train of thought for the last three years. I’ve been through this roller coaster of cognitive dissonance, trying desperately to convince myself to believe, then just trying to suspend disbelief, then finally acknowledging deep down inside that I feel nothing at church, that I can no longer read the BofM without a healthy dose of skepticism. I can’t reconcile the history of the Church, its current political bias, its nontransparent financing dealings, its inconsistencies in “eternal” doctrine. I figured if I held on for long enough, “this too shall pass,” and everything would become clear and I could go back to being blissfully unaware, but it hasn’t. It’s only become clearer and clearer that a lot of this doesn’t make sense. While sitting in Sunday School , everything sounds so contrived, so make-believe, that I find myself angry and confused that I used to believe this, and so guilty and sad that I no longer can. I come home from church angry every week, except for the week when I teach RS. I love teaching because I get to teach a more moderate view of the doctrine and present an alternative perspective from the cultural orthodoxy. I have yet to be reprimanded and am often told I am very insightful into the gospel, which I find a little ironic.
I can so relate to this except that I’m on the HC and trying to walk that line is very hard at times. Just yesterday I expressed some of my more middle of the road feelings that I thought would make me look like an apostate to the HC and the SP. After our meeting the SP and several others thanked me for my comments and expressed appreciation for having the courage to speak up and even agreed with some of my not so orthodox views. I am pretty sure some of the brethren were rolling their eyes. I think that for now I have chosen to stay active and involved because I think I can do more good on the inside than I could by just leaving and that not only applies to my calling but also to my ward friends and my family. That’s just me for now. It might not work for others and I feel alright with that.
Quote:Becoming a happy, whole, satisfied person who is financially stable is something you should do before you set out to raise another human being.
If that was the case there would never be another baby born again.
Quote:That’s just not something they teach you at Church. Instead, they make you feel like you are a sinner if you choose to delay marriage or children in favor of other priorities. I’m sorry, but I just don’t agree with that
.
Then maybe in your lessons you can teach that or something close to that and with your family you can for sure. I hope that with your boys and their special needs you can teach them something close to this that will meet their circumstances. My heart goes out to you and your husband. I had a daughter who was bi-polar and who committed suicide a few years ago. That has changed my out look at life some along with many other things. I can relate to some of your confusion and concerns. All of lives lessons can teach us so much and hopefully we can share some of the knowledge we have gained with others or at least be a little more patient and understanding.
Again welcome to this site and please let us learn more about your amazing life and please know that you are not alone.
Welcome! I think you will find this a wonderfully supportive place with tons of very smart and experienced people who get right where you are coming from. (Not me so much– I am new here and don’t know much of much but am learning lots!) I hear you on many levels. The female sexuality part in particularly is a very valid part. It took me about 5 years to get past the “dirty” idea enough to be able to even *finish* if you know what I mean. But I have to saw one you let that out of the box it’s pretty hard/impossible to put it back. It was terrible after I was divorced, and I think it causes so much more damage than it has to.
Quote:Becoming a happy, whole, satisfied person who is financially stable is something you should do before you set out to raise another human being.
Quote:If that was the case there would never be another baby born again.
Agreed. I think if most people waited until they could afford kids, most people never would. Really, look around at the world. Every single person you see working as a cashier or a gas station or a restaurant or as a phone worker or secretary or any other number of low paying jobs… (almost every single one)…. no kids. I never could afford most of my kids when I had them but I wouldn’t give up a single one. My last one I could afford, at the time. But life changed again and now I can’t afford any kids anymore. Still wouldn’t give them up. Yet at the same time, I faced a lot of very very hard years because I had my kids first and tried to get my education after. Unnecessary pain? Maybe. Yet it forced a lot of growth for me as well.I learned so many things I otherwise wouldn’t have. Having the kids first put me in some very terrible emotional situations, because if I didn’t have them my life wouldn’t have been so difficult. At the same time, they were my reason for being and if I didn’t have them I wouldn’t have grown up and learned what I have. I wouldn’t have had reasons to keep going at times when things were so hard. So it’s a paradox. I did hear once Jay Leno (I think it was) some years ago saw he wasn’t ready to have kids because he needed his career to be in a better place.You have a valid point– the church does people to marry fast and have kids fast whether they are ready or not and I don’t think it’s particularly healthy for everyone. It probably is one factor of Utah being one of the less wealthy states and the highest bankruptcy state (despite tithing rates- go figure!) I think it’s mostly a retention effort. Having kids forces people to grow up and having them early means they haven’t had time to fall away from the church. If they can get men right from missions to being husbands and fathers and young women right to being wives and mothers they don’t have time or energy to experience the “real world” and saddled with so many responsibilities they might not ever get that time or energy for that. I think that the church should probably push it like they do but I can see why they do. Also, all those kids born into these marriages are all future tithe payers. And that is certainly better for the church.
I have come to the place of non-judgement on this issue I think as I have been on both sides. If you have kids first, you will live and it may be hard, but you will learn. If you have kids after there is no guarantee life will be any better or you will have more money anyway but at least you will know you tried. And yes, people in the church get all kinds of judgmental about a lot of things and certainly shouldn’t judge people for waiting. I hope church eventually starts pushing the non-judgment angle more at some point but I don’t know that they will. I tell my kids that people are warned more times in the scriptures about judging than it mentions murder, but even though it’s given lip service in church, very few people pay much real attention. Sad. Hurts lots of people. There are going to be a lot of very surprised people in heaven. If they would spend more time trying to get people to work on their false judgments than they do on telling people when to have kids or get married or who they should marry or the hundreds of other Pharisaical steps they instead concentrate on, there would be a lot less broken hearts in the church.
I think you won’t find many judgmental people here. Good luck on your path.
What a wonderful introduction! Welcome! You belong here. I hope we can support one another as we forge our way thru the middle! I think you will love this site. I especially identify with the “anxiety, anger, confusion, depression and fear” engendered by the temple. Temple prep is really not preparation. Before going, you don’t know what you don’t know. After going, you can’t say what you want to say. I wish for some major rewording and a different tone to the narration. But, oh, the guilt and fear for just typing that last sentence. Thank you so much for your warm welcome! It’s so nice to have a place where I can explore my doubts and frustrations without being told that I’m not trying hard enough and need to study/pray/fast/repent/talk to the Bishop more or that I’m being deceived by anti-Mormon literature. I’ve slowly been starting to realize that in order to truly examine Mormonism in an impartial way, I need to look at the facts. If it is true, it should be able to stand on it’s own merit, like any other universal truth. Of course, it’s not black and white; there are varying degrees of “true” and I’m sure that I’ll continue to discover even more shades of gray as I continue on this journey. It’s kind of funny – I’ve always believed that there was truth to every religion, otherwise they wouldn’t have any adherents. So I guess I have to sort through and figure out exactly what that is for me in my own religion. What rings true for me? At first I felt guilty that I was questioning and doubting, because I grew up in this culture that anything that remotely disagreed with the Brethern or our white-washed version of Church history was “anti literature.” God gave us intellect for a reason, we are supposed to reason it out and come to a conclusion that isn’t based solely on blind faith, fear, or blind obedience. Now that I’m starting to accept that, I haven’t been feeling guilty about my research and have actually felt peace regarding this matter for the first time in several years. I’m starting to understand that my spirituality and relationship with God isn’t tied up in the Church. They are stand-alone concepts, and that’s the foundation I’m building upon right now. Quote:We talked about this and especially the idea that sexual sin is supposedly next to murder in the following older thread if you haven’t read it yet.
Thanks so much for sharing that with me. It’s been a relief and a comfort to know that I’m not all alone in this regard. I’ve been working through those issues for a while now, and I’m in a much better place now than I was when I was first married.Quote:I feel strongly that in the end, the meaning that means the most to you will be the most helpful and enduring. This means that the part where you “started to really analyze what [you] believed in” can be the beginning of creating something of strength and beauty that you build alone with God. It is also scary and lonely – but I wonder if we have to go through these types of solitary journeys in order for that relationship to be personal and truly run deep and not just be something we picked up from our parents or friends or (insert “turn-key ready” worldview here). We have to build it brick by brick and take ownership for it.
That’s great advice. It’s been a difficult process to “untangle” myself from the Church, so to speak, to figure out where I end and it starts in terms of my identity and belief. It’s painful, but I understand the necessity of the process.Quote:Becoming a happy, whole, satisfied person who is financially stable is something you should do before you set out to raise another human being.
If that was the case there would never be another baby born again.
Hahaha! So true! So maybe I overstated there, but I think what I was getting at is that there is a lot of pressure to marry and reproduce young. Maybe that’s a good thing for some. I don’t think that’s true in my case. Was that the Church’s fault? No, I take full ownership of that decision. No one forced me to get married at 21 or have a baby at 23. But I think that the late teens/early twenties is a very vulnerable time. You are brand new into the world and if people in positions of leadership and authority tell you that’s what you, as a worthy young Latter-Day Saint should do, that can influence your decision a lot. It certainly did mine.
Along with dealing with the painful questions that come with exploring my faith, I’ve also been grieving over the diagnosis of my sons’ autism, and dealing with both of those at the same time can be a little messy and not at all compartmentalized. A little background: Our oldest is 4 and has a mild form of autism called PDD-NOS. He’s very bright, talented, energetic, and you can’t tell him apart from other kids unless I’m standing there pointing things out. He’s a in a mainstream preschool and will be starting Kindergarten next year in a normal classroom. All in all, he’s going to be fine. Our two-year-old, however, has the more severe form of classical autism. He can’t communicate using words, only with screams and yells, which as you can imagine is terribly frustrating for both him and I. We’re trying to introduce picture communication with him so I can figure out how to better meet his basic needs. He also has some sensory issues, as many children with autism do. Despite his challenges, he is an amazing little soul, full of energy and love and humor. I love both of them to the ends of the earth. They both inspire me to be a better person.
My boys were both diagnosed this year, within a month of each other. Immediately, our entire lives changed. I dropped out of school, two semesters shy of my degree. We moved our family from rural Tennessee to DH’s native Phoenix so we could have better access to therapies for our son. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to have a career in my field, at least not for the next 10 years, at least. Our kids’ autism is genetic, so we won’t be having any more biological children, despite our desire to do so (we haven’t ruled out adoption, but it wouldn’t be for a long, long time). Everything we dreamed/hoped/planned for our family and our children’s futures is up in the air. Will they be able to attend college? Go on missions? Get married? A first date? Everything from where we live, to who we can get to babysit our children, what types of family vacations we’ll be able to take, what kinds of schools our kids attend – everything, EVERYTHING, our whole life, every little detail, has been turned upside down. And that’s a grieving process in and of itself. And I think in many ways it’s kind of tangled itself up in the separate grief regarding my Church beliefs, since they’ve been happening simultaneously. One didn’t cause the other –I didn’t start wondering “Why me?” and start questioning the Church – those questions and doubts were already there long before the autism diagnosis. But I did start wondering a lot, “Hey, this is hard, why did I do it this way? Why did I have kids so young and so close together?” and the answer, well,
one answer, is that the Church influenced that a lot. A LOT. And now that I’m not sure I still believe the rationale behind that decision, it’s hard to own it, even though I love my children with all my heart and soul. It’s been a pretty harsh reality check on all fronts. So there’s some pain there that doesn’t even have to deal with the Church at all, and some that does, if that makes sense. Welcome. We’re glad to have you here. If it helps at all, I came to understand the statement, “Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends” a little better by seeing my father’s decision when he was faced with an unexpected situation regarding my mother’s mental health. I know what you described turned your life upside-down, but, for what it’s worth, here’s what I wrote about that verse a couple of years ago – including a link to the post I wrote about my dad:
“Seeking Not Her Own” & “Laying Down One’s Life”( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2010/05/seeking-not-her-own-laying-down-ones.html Welcome to the community! Glad to have you here with us to share part of the journey. I just kept nodding my head and saying “yup, I know what you mean” as I read through your thorough introduction. We get it. The specific experiences and directions in our stories are all a little different. A lot of the general themes are the same though. Our community is a place to explore our Mormon faith and culture, peeling back the layers of the onion, and figuring out how to make something new of it all.
newdirections wrote:Along with dealing with the painful questions that come with exploring my faith, I’ve also been grieving over the diagnosis of my sons’ autism, and dealing with both of those at the same time can be a little messy and not at all compartmentalized. A little background: Our oldest is 4 and has a mild form of autism called PDD-NOS. He’s very bright, talented, energetic, and you can’t tell him apart from other kids unless I’m standing there pointing things out. He’s a in a mainstream preschool and will be starting Kindergarten next year in a normal classroom. All in all, he’s going to be fine. Our two-year-old, however, has the more severe form of classical autism. He can’t communicate using words, only with screams and yells, which as you can imagine is terribly frustrating for both him and I. We’re trying to introduce picture communication with him so I can figure out how to better meet his basic needs. He also has some sensory issues, as many children with autism do. Despite his challenges, he is an amazing little soul, full of energy and love and humor. I love both of them to the ends of the earth. They both inspire me to be a better person.
My boys were both diagnosed this year, within a month of each other. Immediately, our entire lives changed. I dropped out of school, two semesters shy of my degree. We moved our family from rural Tennessee to DH’s native Phoenix so we could have better access to therapies for our son. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to have a career in my field, at least not for the next 10 years, at least. Our kids’ autism is genetic, so we won’t be having any more biological children, despite our desire to do so (we haven’t ruled out adoption, but it wouldn’t be for a long, long time). Everything we dreamed/hoped/planned for our family and our children’s futures is up in the air. Will they be able to attend college? Go on missions? Get married? A first date? Everything from where we live, to who we can get to babysit our children, what types of family vacations we’ll be able to take, what kinds of schools our kids attend – everything, EVERYTHING, our whole life, every little detail, has been turned upside down. And that’s a grieving process in and of itself. And I think in many ways it’s kind of tangled itself up in the separate grief regarding my Church beliefs, since they’ve been happening simultaneously. One didn’t cause the other –I didn’t start wondering “Why me?” and start questioning the Church – those questions and doubts were already there long before the autism diagnosis. But I did start wondering a lot, “Hey, this is hard, why did I do it this way? Why did I have kids so young and so close together?” and the answer, well,
one answer, is that the Church influenced that a lot. A LOT. And now that I’m not sure I still believe the rationale behind that decision, it’s hard to own it, even though I love my children with all my heart and soul. It’s been a pretty harsh reality check on all fronts. So there’s some pain there that doesn’t even have to deal with the Church at all, and some that does, if that makes sense.
First please let me say that Ido notknow exactly what you are going through, but I wish that I could give you more support than just writing on a computer. I am familiar with grief and I also agree that both the church experience and the diagnosis of your sons (with all that fallout) are both forms of grief and are processes that cannot be shortcutted but must be “grown into.” Since I do desire to help and it has already been established that I don’t really know what you are going through – I will talk about myself. My 4 year old son has what I might describe as emotional control issues. We have considered that he might have a mild form of autism or perhaps ADD but have tentatively ruled those out. In learning more about the symptoms of these two conditions, I am much more sympathetic to anyone who I might have in former days questioned their parenting skills. “Little Roy” can do so much and we are very thankful for what he can do, and try not to focus on what he can’t.
But it is hard. He was kicked out of preschool recently. We took him to a “relief nursery” where they did a brief evaluation of him and they concluded that his shortcomings were all fairly typical for boys his age. This was a big relief to my wife (who takes these things very personally) until last Sunday when the PP (primary president) said that “little Roy” and another boy won’t be allowed to participate in the primary program next week. The PP also wants DW (Dear Wife) to consider being called to teach little Roy’s primary class because they don’t know “what else to do.”
DW in exasperated conversation with me said, “He should be able to sit still and listen.” To which I relied, “Yes – but sweetie, you didn’t design him.”
Ok, enough about me and with the disclaimer that my situation is not comparable to your own.
🙂 This brings me to my actual point. Each one of us is a defective Child of God. Tracy M writes about this and the 8th Birthday of her autistic son, Bean, on her blog at the following link:http://dandelionmama.com/2011/09/17/mothering-bean/ This blog entry has been helpful to me in framing my relationship to my son and I hope that it can also be a help for you.
We at StayLDS are a motley crew of misfits all with different “baggage” – but you are sure welcome here. From what you’ve shared so far, it sounds like you’ll fit right in.
:crazy: I just want to second the endorsement of Tracy’s post – and her blog as a whole. She is one of my favorite writers in any venue, and that post is stunning. Newdirections, I can’t imagine how hard that is for you (the diagnosis of your children.) While I have no idea what it is like to have young children diagnosed with any serious problem like that, I do know what it is like to face the death of dreams, and the death of dreams for your children. No one ever teaches us how to deal with that. We were raised in a “when you wish upon a star” society. Not a day passes that I don’t hear some sort of reference such as “you can have anything you want, you just need to wish hard enough” and of course coming from the Mormon perspective, many people in the church have it ingrained that you just have to pray hard enough and be righteous enough. Only the formula doesn’t work. I have no advice to offer, just empathy and heavy heart for your pain.
BTW, I found the temple ceremonies very disturbing too, as have many, many people, but most people won’t openly say it. I did enjoy getting to the celestial room, but I never felt the spirit AT ALL in the ceremonies. I think I have felt more of the spirit walking through the temples before they were dedicated in the open houses. It is a shame that on the wedding day when you are supposed to be the most beautiful, you face your husband wearing ridiculous clothing. Maybe that is shallow of me to feel that way, but I did. If you can pull it off at some point, there is nothing wrong with arranging a civil ceremony now. You can all it a vow renewal or anything you want- you don’t have to worry about cultural rules or norms, you are the boss. Take lots of pictures and make it a wedding to remember. You don’t need to have negative associations with your wedding ceremony. If I could go back in time I would do mine very very differently!
Welcome to StayLDS! This site has been awesome for me, and I’m sure you’ll find here a good forum to, at the very least, get some things off your chest. Your temple horror story really struck me – I was very apprehensive when I was prepping to go to the temple before my mission. One of my buddies, who had just been through himself before his mission, pulled me aside the day before I went through and said, “Hey, I’ve only got one word of advice – whatever you do, no matter what, do NOT fall off the goat.” My eyes got wide, and he just shrugged and said “that’s all I can tell you.” So the whole time I was wondering “where in the world could they be keeping any livestock in this place?” and “so when does the goat come in?” It actually broke the tension a bunch, and made the whole thing seem a bit less weird. Consequently, I’ve given the same advice to several people right before they go through the temple.
Cheers.
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