Are My LDS Days Numbered?

1-God does not wish to reveal any further light and knowledge at this time

2-The Church isn’t ready to be asked to be more compassionate to gay people

3-The Brethren don’t care enough about it to seek an answer.

4-The Brethren are seeking answers, but aren’t unanimous.

1-I don’t think so, I think God is willing to reveal what people ask for.

2-I think this is a HUGE issue. I was young, but I remember how hard it was for people to accept the priesthood being given to all worthy members. And there are still vestiges of ill feelings among some members of the church today with this . Having said that, I think it is wrong to not relieve the very real suffering of many sincere members to let members preserve their biases.

3-I think there are those that want to seek an answer, and those that don’t

4-This is highly likely.

I have such a deep respect for people who are true to the church when it requires such an enormous sacrifice and very real suffering.

For me, I don’t believe that the church has exclusivity on happiness or salvation, so I could see myself being in a situation when living up to everything was too much at odds with the other realities of my life to continue. It would be a very painful decision. Being a member of the church is a fundamental part of who I am.

I’m trying to put myself in your shoes. If the church came and told me that I had to be celibate for the rest of my life, at this point in my life I don’t think I could do it.

I’ve always said that I hope gay members stay in the Church, but, of all people right now, I understand those who leave – as well as I can. You are the black member of the 1960’s and 70’s, and only a few stayed before OD2.

My only consolation, if you will, is that I think this will be a very different conversation in one more generation – when those who are the ages of my children start becoming the leaders of the Church, especially at the local level. My oldest is 24, and young adults that age understanding homosexuality MUCH better than we did at their age. There might or might not be all-encompassing acceptance, and I’m not sure there can or should be if that includes extra-marital sexual relationships when gay marriage / civil unions are the law of the land, but I really do believe things will be very different in 20 years than they are now.

If you can’t wait that long, I understand – but I’d rather have you attending with us than not, no matter what course your life takes you. You have a Bishop for the next few years at least who will support and love you, and that’s always a good thing.

I don’t like my life. I live alone. I only leave my apartment to work and buy groceries. When I get home, I immediately get into my bed and don’t get out until I have to go to work again. he people in the ward are too busy with their families to include me, which is something I really need. I’m afraid to go out to have a social life, because I might end up dating men. I’m stuck.

I no longer hate myself for being gay. This has been a huge boon to me. I am much more self-actualized in my work. However, in order to get to the point where I stopped hating myself, I had to back away from the Church. I have been pretty much inactive for the last six months. I suppose I sustain the Q15 as prophets, seers, and revelators, but they are the ones who have the power to do something about the hate, and they won’t. Many have said hurtful, untrue things about homosexuality that betray a real lack of understanding, and a lack of inspiration on the subject. If one of them got up in GC and gave an entire talk (not just a tibit here and there) on the reality of gay people and how we as a Church need to love and include them, people would be quoting it for years. Those quotes would sink into members’ hearts, and maybe, just maybe, start some change for the better. As it is, I get the feeling people are too afraid to give any comfort lest it be misconstrued as disobedience to the prophet, or sanctioning sin. I have heard many people insist that I have a place in the kingdom—I have realized that I do, but it’s in a cupboard under the stairs.

I already have other problems with church: Three hours of sitting–I have chronic muscle pain, and it’s difficult for me to sit for long periods of time. I’m tired all the time–and church is incredibly boring. I hate the correlated, watered down pablum of the talks and lessons. I need deeper spiritual nourishment, and the idealist in me is frustrated that I can’t get it at church. I don’t like the corporate mentality. I hate the bunker mentality, the “us vs. them”. The people in the ward don’t seem to be reaching out in a way that I need, and I’m certainly not getting anything beneficial out of church, except for the Sacrament. If I don’t go to church, no one else suffers for it. I have no need to go just to keep up appearances. My problems are much more serious than looking like Peter Priesthood for others. And for some reason, I no longer get any value out of doing something I don’t want to do just for the “character-building” aspect. How can I overcome these things? The church is a huge part of me. It will hurt very much to leave if I do.

I want my spirituality. I need my covenants. But I can’t go on like this with Church. Something has to give.

turinturambar, I understand your leg pain. I have it too. I know that it will always have it.

This is what I do:

a. when it hurts, I stand in the back. Leadership sees me & most members don’t.

b. there are times I use a cane. Sometimes because I need it. Other times I’m communicating that I physically hurting without having to say it out load.

c. I cut out of some meetings because I have a limit of how long I can sit there. 1 to 2 hrs is the outside limit.

d. I prioritize the meetings I can attend without pain. Sacrament is 1st.

e. If people don’t understand, too damn bad.

I like all of the other suggestions you’ve received too. There are alot of good ideas here.

I wish you all the best.

Mike from Milton.

I don’t like my life. I live alone. I only leave my apartment to work and buy groceries. When I get home, I immediately get into my bed and don’t get out until I have to go to work again. he people in the ward are too busy with their families to include me, which is something I really need. I’m afraid to go out to have a social life, because I might end up dating men. I’m stuck.

“Damned if you do, damned if you don’t” – not a fun place to be in.

Have you dated men before?

Have you been able to be friends with men or women without any romantic feelings developing?

…However, in order to get to the point where I stopped hating myself, I had to back away from the Church. I have been pretty much inactive for the last six months.

Sometimes it’s really good to take a break, to sort things out.

Do you think your self hatred is completely based on your church affiliation?

As it is, I get the feeling people are too afraid to give any comfort lest it be misconstrued as disobedience to the prophet, or sanctioning sin.

It seems that you feel that people keep a distance from you, when you really need their friendship and love.

Do many in your ward/life know about your same-sex attraction and if so, do you think that is the reason why they seem to keep a distance?

I have heard many people insist that I have a place in the kingdom—I have realized that I do, but it’s in a cupboard under the stairs.

I believe you have a place that is determined primarily by you, not by your perfection – nobody’s perfect – but by your courage in exploring the kingdom of God – which is within you.

When asked when the kingdom of God would come…Jesus taught, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, neither shall they say, lo here or lo there, Behold the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) This makes sense – how can you experience anything except within you?

Turinturambar, of what you know of Christ and his ways, do you think he would ever place anyone on the outskirts, as if they are not important?

People are not perfect… they will do that… but Christ would never. He was about looking out for the one, even leaving the 99.

I need deeper spiritual nourishment, and the idealist in me is frustrated that I can’t get it at church.

For a time in your life, I imagine you did get spiritual nourishment from church.

But now, maybe you have outgrown it, or for whatever reason do not resonate with the same ideas or feeling you get being there.

It could be temporary, or permanent…

I wonder if you feel frustrated because you feel like you “should” be getting spiritual nourishment at church, but you aren’t.

At some point, I gave up the expectation and saw church as more of a type of club membership and it actually has been better.

Lately, I have skipped some parts – but when I go and am not busy serving, I bring some good lit & it becomes more spiritually edifying.

I also redefined terms that help change a “preachy/condemning” lesson/talk to an inspiring one…

ie:

Celestial: Christ/Divine Consciousness

Kingdom of God: personal experience of love

Temple: our bodies

Sin: Incorrect thinking (but we cannot help but think incorrectly, so to consider sin as unacceptable is a sin in itself, IMO)

Satan/Adversary: Unhealed part of us; incorrect thinking that ultimately causes pain

Repent: a change of mind/heart… gospel = good news

I don’t like the corporate mentality. I hate the bunker mentality, the “us vs. them”.

I agree.

The people in the ward don’t seem to be reaching out in a way that I need, and I’m certainly not getting anything beneficial out of church, except for the Sacrament.

What would you like to happen, especially as far as others reaching out to you?

ie Would you like them to call you, to talk to you more at church?

If I don’t go to church, no one else suffers for it. I have no need to go just to keep up appearances. My problems are much more serious than looking like Peter Priesthood for others. And for some reason, I no longer get any value out of doing something I don’t want to do just for the “character-building” aspect. How can I overcome these things? The church is a huge part of me. It will hurt very much to leave if I do.

There seems to be few reasons that draw you to church, yet you feel like it is a major part of you and that leaving would hurt.

Why would you feel hurt – is it because the church feels like a family member – a comfortable familiarity that has been part of your life?

Or is it because you feel it will be cutting ties with some people… what do you think is the reasoning behind the potential hurt?

What aspects of the church do you want to keep alive, to continue embracing?

I don’t know what to say other than I’m sorry for your sorrow. I just want you to know that people’s attitudes can change. Years ago(not that many) I felt like the majority of church people, but after many many speed bumps in my life my out look has changed and continues to do so. The only answer I can give is that I don’t even pretend for a second that I have all the answers. I don’t even know all the questions.

There was no such thing as being gay when the people at the top leading our church today formed their worldview. There were no LGBT people. Okay, we all know that wasn’t the case in reality, but nobody was “out” as gay in Utah in the 1940’s. Nobody talked about it. The church is just now starting to have to deal with it. We always seem to be at least a full generation behind the times, being such a culturally conservative “tribe.”

It breaks my heart. I wish we were faster at finding ways to love people and serve their needs. This is one area we are still failing at terribly. If I were in your situation Turinturambar, I would probably distance myself from active participation. I can’t say what’s right for someone else. I think it’s important that gay people try to stay if they can, because I think THAT is one of the biggest motivations for the culture to change. The more members come in contact with loving, caring, faithful gay members who live authentically, the more they will see the need to find better ways to include them. But at the same time, I realize how painful that can be.

I admire your humility and faith brother. That’s about all I can say. You’ve endured a lot to be where you are. If nothing else, you’re included and embraced in my version of Mormonism.