Discussion with the Missionaries about This Site

Interesting conversation Ray. It seems like a lot of regular members can “get it” when the site is explained in the right way. I also think younger members get it more easily than older ones. That’s been my experience.

Thank you, Ray, for being such an example of moderation, patience and postivity. My son will enter the MTC in November and I will be interested in his experience. I’m conflicted and worried. At the exact moment my all-or-nothing/black-white approach to the gospel failed me, I am sending a child raised on that approach into the fray.

That is good to hear that they were positive about it.

Thanks, everyone.

Fwiw, kipper, I don’t need to be a fly on the wall for that conversation. I’ve mentioned my role here many times since I started, to stake and ward leaders, over the pulpit, in classes and in person. I have mentioned the actual name of the forum only a few times, but I talk very openly about what I do here.

Granted, I’ve not gone into great detail about some of the topics and my most unorthodox views in most of those conversations, but I’ve never had one person react negatively, and I’ve never had one person express a lack of understanding about what I mean or why it is necessary. I know there are people out there who would react differently, but, honestly, I haven’t met any yet who are negative about the mission of this site and my explanation about why it was created.

Most people “get it” at the most basic level. For them, it’s MUCH more about knowing I’m not a threat to testimony in any way and not sweating the details. The mission is something they understand, usually without hesitation.

I think maybe our ward or even stake might be a little orthodox. My experience has not been the same. During GD class several months ago I was questioning the teacher (he’s a friend) during a miracles and faith discussion and I was “put in my place” by one of our leaders who was in class with an out of context quote from Brigham Young. I’ve heard a lot of other questionable stuff since and I started looking for community on internet sites and a couple weeks later the class teacher started out by stating that …”there are 40 thousand members out there on the internet griping about the church”. I have found myself of the defense on the rare occasion I mention I am on the internet asking questions. I usually end with something like fortunately there are places where people can go ask difficult questions. Could be all coincidence and I’m happy to hear about your good experiences. I’m going to probe a little to see if I can receive some of the same.

I think maybe our ward or even stake might be a little orthodox. My experience has not been the same. During GD class several months ago I was questioning the teacher (he’s a friend) during a miracles and faith discussion and I was “put in my place” by one of our leaders who was in class with an out of context quote from Brigham Young.

I keep my set of JS and BY quotes handy for just those types of occasions. Although, having been a GD teacher in disaffection, i have found that questioning is disruptive: people don’t come to church to be challenged, but to be edified, to be fed. Rather than questioning the miracles, I move quickly to what does it all mean to me.

I’ve heard a lot of other questionable stuff since and I started looking for community on internet sites and a couple weeks later the class teacher started out by stating that …”there are 40 thousand members out there on the internet griping about the church”. I have found myself of the defense on the rare occasion I mention I am on the internet asking questions. I usually end with something like fortunately there are places where people can go ask difficult questions. Could be all coincidence and I’m happy to hear about your good experiences. I’m going to probe a little to see if I can receive some of the same.

Makes me wonder, though, whether there are 40K members griping, or are vastly more than that listening to the 40K disaffected and ex-mormons who gripe. Without voices from a Middle Way, there seems to be only one place to gripe, because the “faithful” sites rapidly ban those with questions. Since it’s either all true or biggest fraud in existence, I would suggest that more than 40k quietly listen to the voices of RfM and others. Meanwhile, apologists target the voices in the Middle as being most dangerous of all.

We who make the Middle Way work for us, however tentative or difficult that may seem, owe an obligation to be there for those who struggle — not to correct them back to the believing status, nor to encourage them to leave, but simply to be a safe haven to express doubts and come to peace with one’s own authentic Way.

Yeah, Kipper, to be fair and comprehensive, my experience is WAY different than that of at least one member who participates here. :thumbdown:

“The Way is made by walking on it” (Chuang Tzu). Each of us have our own, unique experience. I’m not sure why this would be a thumbdown… I know you have a lot of acceptance by your leaders and friends, probably because you don’t threaten their beliefs, but rather, simply show compassion for all types of belief. I think that is the key to getting along in this world of diverse levels of dogmatism. There will always be those who see through the lens of the dogma, partaking fully of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, rather than enjoying the fruit of the tree of life. Without deconstructing their schema, it’s impossible to get through, and they will frequently ‘correct’ our understanding. That you don’t run across these types doesn’t mean they aren’t there. And sometimes they get a little authority, as they suppose.

I am convinced that the vast majority of saints are just trying to eek by and feel the spirit day by day. They don’t doubt, but they aren’t hard-line either. When we find the gems of the gospel — the idea that the savior is their for us regardless of our shortcomings — actually, that he is there for us BECAUSE of our shortcomings — then we materially differentiate ourselves from those who are stuck on the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Because the tree of life — the fruit of which is the love of god, is physically separated from the tree Satan encouraged us to partake of, it is impossible to partake of dogma and the love of god simultaneously. The symbolism of the cherubim and a flaming sword means something to me — as long as we are living by the law of the telestial kingdom, we separate ourselves forever from the Love of God.