Where to Go from Here?

what did you do when you transitioned into “Stage 4”? Where did you draw the line? How did decide what works for you? I realize that this website is called “Stay LDS” and that many chose to try to remain in the church, but how do you decide to stay? After staying, what rules to follow and which to ignore? And how did you get rid of all the guilt we’re programmed to feel for questioning or deviating from the orthodox?

Ray gave a great summary on another thread:

Speaking very loosely, Stage 3 is about exclusivity and certainty; Stage 4 is about shattered certainty, angst and direction of change (embracing uncertainty and the need for individual understanding or returning to some form of exclusivity and certainty – in the case of Mormonism, for example, returning to absolute, comprehensive belief or changing to absolute, comprehensive rejection OR moving into an individual understanding that is somewhere in the middle); Stage 5 is about embracing individual understanding while respecting others’ understandings (with exceptions that prove the rule).

So you are heading into stage 4? This is a stage of demolition and personal belief construction. This does not necessarily mean rejecting the church. One of my bishops talked of clearing out the rubble of false expectations and building on the bedrock below – but what is really interesting is that each person in this stage will find their own bedrock at a different level. For some it will be priesthood authority, for some it will be back to the bible, for others (like me) it will be the unconditional love of Heavenly Parents, for still others it may be that they reject everything but science and what it can understand.

This is a time for weighing and considering each and every “brick” in your worldview and deciding if that is something you want to keep or something that doesn’t fit you very well anymore.

In this process, wisdom dictates that we go slow and are thoughtful and purposeful.

This is ok. You are normal. You are still you. The world is still the world. This is just a different (but valid) perspective. Breath. :thumbup:

newdirections, Well, first of all, I hope you find support in this site, whether you ultimately decide to stay LDS or cut all ties. When I went through my faith transition, I was completely on my own, and that was tough. Thank God (and I mean that in the literal sense, not the profane sense) for this site.

I’ll share some thoughts, but just remember that while you and I have a common context, everybody has a different set of circumstances, and a different path that they will choose…

– I’m not totally bought into the “stages of faith”. I find much that is accurate there, but it’s an awfully broad brush, and I find a bit of dissonance in the idea of labeling where each of us finds ourselves in the transition. It also leads to a false sense that progression from the stages is both akin to maturity or evolved state, as well as an inevitability. So, it’s definitely interesting, and I can see my vague image reflected in it, but it’s hardly a roadmap. There are many people who exhibit aspects of several of the stages at once… others who move in the reverse direction, others who skip stages in their entirety, others who never move from one stage to another once they reach adulthood.

– IMO, Black and White thinking is a killer, both for the very faithful and for the very cynical. One thing I went through, and I observed in others, was that at one point in my life, I believed the approved history implicitly… later, I believed the alternate history implicitly. I now believe actual history is not close to either extreme. Accepting everything that falls outside of the orthodox as being legitimate, is no better than accepting the orthodox only. After all, you have heard all kinds of anti-mormons explain what you believe, when you’ve never heard that stuff at church. I’ll just take one example from your post: garments. The orthodox view might not work for you anymore, but you don’t have to view garments as just “underwear” as the only logical alternative. If you choose not to wear them anymore, that’s fine. But many here still wear them as a personal and private symbol of their devotion to God, even if they believe that JS just made it all up. Symbols are what we choose to make of them, not what the Church tells us they are. Many people wear crosses, many sport tattoos that have some meaning to them, like the Japanese symbol for “suck-it-up”. They know what it means and they make it a part of their identity, even though you and I don’t know (or care) what it says.

– You mentioned the Pharisaical nature of some of our practices. I agree with you that those can be clumsy and awkward. However, it’s helpful for me to compartmentalize. Listing what is OK and not OK for Sundays is simply an effort to work through what Sabbath Observance means to us and then to institutionalize it. It’s not the same as doctrine. Some see it that way, but that is their problem, not yours. It helps some people to formulate clear boundaries so that they don’t have to think about each case all the time… that’s OK. I think part of what helps me now is recognizing that it is OK for other people to have such views. My ability to have a different view just confirms that I’m getting more comfortable in my own skin. I guess what I mean by this is that religion/spirituality is a very personal thing. I no longer feel compelled to think in a certain way, but I also allow that others can feel however they want about it. People aren’t evil for not going to R-rated movies. They aren’t evil for stating their belief that the WoW prohibits drinking Coke. I actually am very sympathetic toward those who set standards for themselves and then try to meet them.

– I wouldn’t have stayed in the church if I didn’t have active family members, and so, based on your description, it might be that there is no compelling reason for you to stay… up to you. But I will say that over the years, I’ve realized that there is much to love and admire about the church, the gospel, and the people. Whether you ultimately stay or leave, I encourage you to see the larger good, rather than the warts of the church. Even if you leave, I think that such a stance will help you feel better about your prior involvement in it, and the continued involvement of family/friends… If you do stay, I think it is critical to be able to have an eye toward the good, rather than the bad. “Warts and all” is a common phrase here, basically meaning that all things considered, there is still much good in the church.

Newdirections’ irrational fear is what’s left after the storm of dismaying information has wiped out trust, affection and darn near all of the faith I ever had in the particular, exclusive claims of Mormonism. I’ve only skimmed Rough Stone Rolling because I’m not sure I can read it and send a son into the MTC at the same time. My husband is so different. When I told him a couple of days ago that I am very pessimistic about rebuilding regard for Joseph Smith, he said, “He’s dead.” Water off a duck’s back. He sees Joseph as an instrument. I’m not like that. I know it’s not faith in man/Joseph that we need, it’s faith in Christ. Understood, but I want to say in the open that I do not place any trust in Joseph Smith. The mental gymnastics needed to stay in the church after that moment are far fewer than the ones required to maintain my sanity now. Maybe I will think differently in the future. But I wish there was a place, a respectable place, for people who feel this way now.

It is really hard trying to figure the next step isn’t it? I feel like I am in the same spot. Just kind of stuck in the middle of the road with out gas, a map and alone. Sure others are traveling on the same roads but you ask yourself if they really know where they are going because at on time you thought you knew. I think that ther is something to Fowler’s stages but I get a little confussed where I am at because it changes fairly often. I think I need a break but with my calling and my wife’s fears and other things happening right now it would really hard and might cause more trouble than it might be worth. I’m feeling really depress about the whole thing right now. I don’t like to complain and I don’t want to bring others down and I do have an appt. with the Dr at the VA tomorrow. So thanks for putting up with me tonight.

– I’m not totally bought into the “stages of faith”. I find much that is accurate there, but it’s an awfully broad brush, and I find a bit of dissonance in the idea of labeling where each of us finds ourselves in the transition. It also leads to a false sense that progression from the stages is both akin to maturity or evolved state, as well as an inevitability. So, it’s definitely interesting, and I can see my vague image reflected in it, but it’s hardly a roadmap. There are many people who exhibit aspects of several of the stages at once… others who move in the reverse direction, others who skip stages in their entirety, others who never move from one stage to another once they reach adulthood.

I completely agree with you “On Own Now.” I remember talking to a friend about the stages of faith and had to keep pointing out that the higher stages were not necessarily superior to lower stages. She suggested that the stages be named something less linear – like colors – to avoid this misconception. I also recognize that the draw backs to dividing and labeling people (and ourselves) are present here as well. People are complex and fluid – we cannot act as though they were round or square pegs to be classified. For me the major advantage of this type of model is the alternate framing of the concepts of Faith, Doubt, Trust, Pride, Humility, and Sin that we are so familiar with.

In my own experience, I went through an assumptive world collapse. I did not know it at the time. I just knew that everything was falling apart and that I was flailing wildly and not finding anything solid to hold onto. Was this what it might be like to sink into madness? My subconscious mind was reacting in a fairly predictable and documented way to an extreme traumatic event, but I didn’t know it. When I finally did find out about the concept of an assumptive world collapse (similar to moving from stage 3 to stage 4 but also involving the loss or modification of such concepts as the Just World Hypothesis), it was such a relief to me. I was not in uncharted territory, nor was I falling under satanic influences – I was having a normal, human, and involuntary response. That for me is the major advantage of Fowler’s stages – that a faith crisis may be normal, human, and involuntary.

However, I do not expect these concepts/models to be embraced in the church. Elder Boyd K. Packer is oft quoted in saying:

“True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior. The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 20; or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 17).

I had always understood this to mean that the doctrines of the gospel offer an improved view (perhaps even a perfect view) on the human condition. I no longer believe this to be the case. Sometimes other models allow me to gain understand of myself in ways that do not involve sacrificing my sense of self worth (as some interpretations of the gospel might have me do).

I have two options: either I have to sit out in the sun and let myself acclimatize my eyes to the brightness, which I’ve never seen before, or go back to the cave and let my eyes readjust to the darkness, which I will never see the same way again. Either way is an adjustment, either way is painful, and either way I’ll never be the same again.

Well said “newdirections,” all options before you include adjustment, pain, growth, and change.

For me, the sun hurts my eyes, but I don’t want to go back into the cave. I’m happy to have seen the sun, even though I’m temporarily blinded by it.

Perhaps you have family back in the cave, relationships that matter more to you than dancing in the sun. I’ve been thinking a lot about Lot’s wife who looked back (possibly a metaphor for turned back) I believe she did this because she still had married daughters and possibly grandchildren back in Sodom. If you can’t get them to flee with you, does it really imply weakness of character to remain with them?

I remember coming out of a very inspiring GC and seeing people mow lawns etc. They had no idea that God’s prophet to the world had just made an important announcement. I wondered if the division in the spirit world or even the divisions in the heavenly kingdoms might be something like that. We might live and associate with others that do not, cannot, see the light that we find so warming.

Applying this idea of divisions back to the idea of the cave – Many of us live with and love people who have no interest in seeing things in other ways. Perhaps we learn to become bilingual so that we might toggle between languages and communicate with our loved ones in their own language. We do not need to leave them behind to be warmed by the sun. A piece of it has become part of us now and can be carried with us. We do not need to be hurtful or disparaging towards our loved one’s worldview (and attacking their sense of self in the process). He (or she) with the greater knowledge has the greater responsibility.

Maybe I have to give up all my preconceived notions about God in order to truly find Him. Maybe God isn’t comprehensible the way I was trying to comprehend Him before. It gives me hope.

Once again, very wise words! :thumbup: