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Hi all, thank you for advance for reading some of this. It’s quite therapeutic to be able to put it all down in writing. Apologies if it goes on too long. I never thought I’d find myself ‘here’ – spiritually. Once I did, I thought I’d have to leave the church and I cried.
I never thought I’d find a place like ‘here’ – staylds.com. Once I did, I realised maybe I could stay at chuch and I cried.
I, somewhat ironically, saw the link to this site on an anti-forum (RfM). They may have unknowingly saved me from the brink of leaving the church. I started by reading this article:
http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html . It could have been written especially for me. So first, thank you to all who have made a contribution to making this site possible.I was born and grew up in the church (in UK), went through youth clean and obedient and on a mission at 19. I was married in the temple within a year of my release to a wonderful woman. I’ve served as a Seminary Teacher, High Councillor, Branch President, YM/EQ President. We’re now in our 30s and have some great kids.
In 2010, DW announced that she was quitting church as she had reached the conclusion that she didn’t have a testimony of the gospel, and was even uncertain about the existence of God. Out of respect for me and the faith I had in the meaning of our temple sealing, she stopped short of resigning her membership. It was a turbulent few months but, thankfully, we came out of the experience stronger and closer as a couple. Recognising we love each other because of who we are, not what we believe has been great for both of us.
I continued serving in my calling and bringing the kids to church on my own. I went through a wonderfully uplifting personal spiritual 12 months. I was able to develop further understanding of and commitment to the Saviour and the gospel. DW had raised a few historical issues but hadn’t pressed them on me. I’d been able to easily dismiss them through FAIR articles, but hadn’t pressed them on her. We had reached a fair and positive balance.
In 2012 we moved abroad on an ex-pat assignment working in Asia. The unit we moved into was very different. 200+ in sacrament, many of them Utah ex-pats and many of them passing through for a few weeks or months. Our branch back home has about 50 active and is very friendly and united. DW attended for a few weeks to help settle the kids but soon stopped again. To be honest I wasn’t enjoying it. Our home branch is a very honest and down-to-earth bunch. Most SS/PH lessons are realistic about the challenges of life and the application of the gospel. The new unit was the opposite. A ‘by the book’ lesson, with perfect answers from apparently perfect people. No one spoke about their problems or weaknesses. People seemed to reassure themselves of being right by continually pointing out how wrong everyone else in the world is. I continued going, but DW was uncomfortable with some of the close-minded attitudes the kids were being taught. At the same time I was interacting with work colleagues who knew almost nothing of Christianity, but seemed to be far more spiritually balanced and generous than my church associates. I started to ask myself some questions.
After a frustrated outburst from my wife one Sunday evening, which coincided with me reading an article about ‘mixed-faith relationships’ needing both parties to understand the other’s position, I decided to properly study and understand the critics claims about the church. I committed to myself to do it responsibly. I would read everything I could from both critic and defender. I would give myslef at least 6-9 months to read it all and not make any rash decisions. I would cross-check as many references as possible from both sides of the argument. I was certain the church was true and everything I had been taught it was. It would be a process of investigation. I knew that other people had studied the full history of the church and come out stronger in their faith, I thought I would too. I was even reassured that a couple of members at church were very well read and still active. One is an apologetic who writes a blog.
That triggered one of the most troubling months of my life. I couldn’t stop reading. Work suffered, my family suffered (my wife was very supportive). Almost every waking moment, I was consumed with reading, cross-referencing and taking notes. I read critics, apologetics, apostles, pro and ex forums, BYU articles, FARMs, FAIR, everything I could find. There were times I felt very angry and close to vomiting as I read. I shed a few tears as my faith and testimony was stretched, pummeled and bruised.
Several times I thought I’d reached the conclusion that I couldn’t continue attending in good conscience. I couldn’t see how anything I believed had any foundation any longer. I even questioned the existence of any kind of Deity. How, I wondered, could I have put so much faith in the intense spiritual experience which I have had throughout my life, if those feelings were based on a fraud? If the source of those experiences couldn’t be God – then it stood to reason I was deluding myself about everything.
And then I found this site, and realised there was a way of finding peace and having some integrity. It has been such a relief to find people who understand where I’m at. To not be looked at suspiciously for a mildly off-piste question. To realise that other people are still enjoying the benefits of being an active mormon, but re-framing the experience, resources and contribution they make.
I’m still reading and studying, but at a more reasonable pace. I’ve still not reached a final conclusion. I’m not sure I ever will. I still attend church every Sunday and serve in Priesthood. I still sometimes feel like a hypocrite and wonder if I’m doing my children a disservice in the long run. I’m trying to not become the obnoxious one in the corner. I often regret starting on this process at all. I certainly wouldn’t wish it on anyone else, so I keep quiet about the history and doctrinal contradictions.
Some questions I’m still trying to ask myself:
– Am I simply justifying activity. My family and friends back home are all fully-active members. They would be devastated if I left. Is the stayLDS position simply a way of rationalising attending and supporting something that’s simply not true? Should I really just make a clean break and trust my friends/family to continue loving me for who I am, just like I (and friends) did for DW?
– Have I missed something? How is it that other people know the complications and yet stay in full, orthodox activity? Is there some article I’ve not yet read that will finally swing it in the church’s favour? I don’t think so, but don’t understand how others can know this and not have to reshape their beliefs.
– Is this all a flaxen chord? “He leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever.” Am I being led, very carefully down to hell? Is stayLDS and the attitude I’ve currently adopted just one stepping stone of deception and justification for eventually abandoning the wonderful truth I should be embracing?
– Or… is this a ‘higher way?’ Is this a process of stepping beyond the dogma of ‘thou shalt…’ and being able to find spiritual independence. Is this part of God’s plan to turn my home or the church into a more positive spiritual environment for genuine devotion and individualism.
Who knows the answers to those questions… I’m not sure I ever will. But I’m glad to have found a safe place to discuss them.
Welcome, I think this will be a good place for you. The questions that you are asking are exactly the type of things we discuss here.
I have come to realize that I after losing the faith basis I had benefited from in my life prior to this, that I am on a journey of discovering and understanding my beliefs. I think I will be on this journey for the rest of my life. I will probably never have the “knowledge” that I previously thought I had.
For me, I find it fulfilling to go to church because it gives me the opportunity to serve and love people that need it. Families that need financial assistance, mothers that need help, youth that need a friend, that kind of thing. For the rest of it, I have yet to figure it out.
Welcome. You are in exactly the right place, and you will find the support you need, because many have been where you are. One of the founders, here, has a similar situation where the DW disengaged… He wrote the HowToStay article, and can help you a lot. You are entering a new stage of your faith development…and there are many paths from which you can choose. Returning to TBM status isn’t going to work, and completely disengaging is chaotic…so we say, “go slow”.
I talk of the Middle Way as a stable path where one has defined one’s own beliefs and can find peace in the midst of LDS or other faith systems. As well, the Middle Way avoids extremes of emotion and faith positions, seeking harmony amidst the polemics. it probably isn’t for everyone
It also helps to meet others who share this unique and wonderful journey. I travel extensively throughout Europe and Asia, and one active member here lives in Singapore. I get to UK a lot lately, so let me know by PM where you are located and when you might be in UK.
Best of luck as you sort ths out!
Hi, mackay11. This site, as far as a can tell, is sanity-saving. Since you didn’t mention it specifically, I thought I’d pass on something that helps me. Every couple of days I listen to a Mormon Stories podcast. Last night’s was John Dehlin’s interview of Spencer W. Kimball’s son. It doesn’t fix my problems, but it was refreshing. There is something about seeing people actually say aloudsome “middle road” things that is very encouraging. Best wishes. Thanks all. I appreciate the support. I went to church today full of the hope of reframing my worship experience. Priesthood was excellent with references to both conference talks, real personal experiences and quotes from ancient literature.
Sunday School on the other hand was driving me nuts within about 5 minutes of starting. We had someone claiming a connection to the second diaspora (sp?) due to a National Geographic test. Someone else talking about blood transformation to become tribe of Israel. And then the teacher read from a section of the Book of Mormon which contains one of the most troubling sections of possible New Testament plagiarism.
I wasn’t sure how much longer I’d be able to bite my tongue so got up and left without a fuss. I sat in an empty classroom for the rest of SS fuming.
Not sure whether I can stomach sitting in such apparent ignorance every week. I know that makes me sound incredibly arrogant and superior, and I don’t enjoy feeling that way.
That sounds like a crazy lesson! I feel fortunate sometimes to teach a youth Sunday School class. Sometimes I do enjoy observing some of this kind of wackiness. It can be anthropologically interesting. I too have been at the point where it frustrates me. Some wards are better than others. I suspect we’ve all got some great ones to share. Unfortunately, I often do enjoy feeling arrogant and superior. Maybe if you don’t enjoy it, you’re not doing it right!
wayfarer wrote:You are entering a new stage of your faith development…and there are many paths from which you can choose. Returning to TBM status isn’t going to work, and completely disengaging is chaotic…so we say, “go slow”.
I talk of the Middle Way as a stable path where one has defined one’s own beliefs and can find peace in the midst of LDS or other faith systems.
Thanks wayfarer, you’re right. I can’t imagine a situation where I’d be able to be back in the simple, naïve certainty of being a TBM. I think I’m still mourning that loss.
I’m not really a middle way kind of guy. I’m not sure how sustainable that is. I can see three current possible outcomes:
– I’ll leave entirely. I hope I do it with dignity, respect for my friends and family and some ability to have belief in Deity.
– I’ll become an ardent apologetic, earnest to convince others, and myself that it all has an explanation
– I’ll become a (perhaps vocal) reformer on the inside which could lead to church discipline.
I don’t want to do the first, I doubt there’s the evidence to do the second and I question the need for the third as I can’t get over the idea of the church being all right or all wrong.
For now I’ll settle for the uncertainty and limbo of ‘middle way.’
hawkgrrrl wrote:That sounds like a crazy lesson! I feel fortunate sometimes to teach a youth Sunday School class. Sometimes I do enjoy observing some of this kind of wackiness. It can be anthropologically interesting. I too have been at the point where it frustrates me. Some wards are better than others. I suspect we’ve all got some great ones to share.
Unfortunately, I often do enjoy feeling arrogant and superior. Maybe if you don’t enjoy it, you’re not doing it right!
Thanks hawkgrrrl. I think there’s a thread in ‘doctrine’ that has a wacky things you’ve heard at church. I’ll go and console myself in there
Thing is, part of my frustration with my new ex-pat ward is how many people spend time talking about the poor ignorant locals around us. Uurgh… I’m sure none of them have any true notion of the beauty in Hinduism, Buddhism, Confusianism.
With that frustration I don’t want to find myself with a similar attitude from the other direction. But maybe for my sanity I should have a silent snort at the craziness and start keeping book of the loopier statements.
Welcome. I enjoyed your story and have felt many of the same feelings. I too wish that I had not passed through this gate because it just really is so confusing and heartbreaking at times. I also know that I can never get the Ginie back in the bottle so I have tried how to make it work for me and my wife who agrees with many of my views but she enjoys church and for the most part. It really is part of who we want to be. I don’t have much of a problem speaking my mind and in my current calling on the HC I let the others know many of my views or at least the ones I have now formed. I get mad during PH more than I should because the lessons just seem so simple for this very complex life. I stay because the church has and does help me and also I think that it needs leaders or even members who will speak the truth and you have doubts and will share those so other will know that they are not alone. I think I can do more good inside the church than just by walking away. Anyway welcome and we look forward to hearing more from you.
Funny you should say that your expat ward’s members are dismissive of the value of eastern religion. In my expat’s ward RS today (Singapore) a sister strongly recommended Zen Buddhism to increase our gratitude. Most of our ward members spend travels visiting ASEAN countries and going to temples of various religions. My experience has been different. However, when my MIL visited, she was not interested in visiting temples, which surprised us. Her attitude was very different from most of the Mormons we know. We chalked it up to a generational divide. My mother is also dismissive of non-Christian faiths. She is a convert to Mormonism. Welcome, I have come to land in a place where I believe in a God that knows me and loves me. I like to ponder on the concept of my Heavenly Father/Parents or a Saving God that sacrifices himself that we might be forgiven as metaphors for aspects of “His” nature. I do not know these things for sure but I feel them to be true. When I say that “I feel them to be true,” I mean that I feel some sort of confirmation within me of God’s love.
As for the rest of it, I’m pretty sure that I’m wrong about almost everything. But I believe that sometime, somewhere, this loving presence will pick me up out of the dirt of my own folley, wipe my tears and let me know that I’m ok – that my journey is ok. And believing those things about God lets me believe things (that I’m ok) about myself.
It’s kinda like my 4 year old son when he has a poop accident. I know because of the way he is acting and because of the smell. He doesn’t want me to know because he is embarrassed and he worries that I’ll be upset. I reassure him that I already know and that it is ok. I am there to help him get cleaned up so that he can get back to playing. He is ok – we all have accidents – but he doesn’t have to bear this alone – especially when his way of “dealing with it” is to hide.
So yeah, I’m pretty fuzzy on almost all of the details and that can be hard sometimes in a church that seems to insist that the details are really, really important.
mackay11 wrote:A ‘by the book’ lesson, with perfect answers from apparently perfect people. No one spoke about their problems or weaknesses. People seemed to reassure themselves of being right by continually pointing out how wrong everyone else in the world is.
Perhaps we are not so different than my son, hiding our shame, pretending that it is not there. But just because people are hiding their pain doesn’t take it away. I believe that there is value in acting as God’s hand to reach out at appropriate moments and letting a suffering brother or sister know that they are ok – we all have “accidents” – but they do not have to bear this alone.
Of course in real life it is almost never that simple. It is an ideal, a metaphor of meaning. But it helps me, and I’m ok with that.
Welcome, StayLDS is a good site. I read a lot of the stuff people post here. I also like NOM. You are lucky to have a wife that understands. I have been going through this for a little over 2 years now and I know I would leave the church and just forget about it if I could. My wife is TBM and would still take the kids so I really can’t get away from it though. So I keep going and try to keep my sanity by visiting these different sites. StayLDS may just be a stopping point for you on your way out or you might find it works for you. I am not sure that the middle way will work for many. It seems like a very frustrating life to me but some seem to like it.
I also find some eastern philosophy refreshing. Seems much more in alignment with true loving creator. Yet still supporting the philosophy of eternal progression ….with a personal focus that does not involve looking down your nose Att your neighbor. Am I the only one who looks into the lds congregation and doesn’t see a lot of happy blissful people?
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I know lots of happy members, a few blissful members and a lot of members who aren’t “blissful” – but I don’t know a lot of “blissful” people outside the LDS Church, either. Life has a way of keeping bliss at bay, even for people who are happy. I tend to be quite happy, but I’m not blissful all that much. I still have children at home and a demanding job, so bliss often is around the corner for me. Welcome. I understand very much where you are coming from. My story is similar. My husband lost his faith 9 years ago, and I responded by clinging even tighter to the gospel. We had some rough times, but worked it out. We’ve been happy and felt mostly at peace with our respective positions.
Then one day I realized I had never bothered to really understand his point of view, but was always hoping he’d see mine and “come back.” He never did anything to push me, one way or another. His lost faith was painful to him, and he knew the church makes me happy.
One day it hit me that *I* wanted to understand where he was coming from. I realized this is the person who is most important to me in the world. And I haven’t even given his perspective the “time of day.” And I knew I needed to listen and read and pray and understand.
Like you, I was sure that anything I found out would have a perfectly reasonable (and “faith promoting”) explanation. Then I learned more and realized I had no idea of what I’d gotten myself into.
There are days when I think the gospel is amazing and I want to believe every part. There are days when I wonder if I can believe anything, or am deluding myself instead. Some days I think I should renew my temple recommend. Other days I wonder if I can even stay in the church. It’s hard!
I don’t have answers, but understand where you are coming from. This site is a GOOD place. I hope it will help you the way it has helped me.
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