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Hello all. I just wanted to say hi again and thank everyone for their continuations in proving a balanced and healthy site. I enjoy participating in conversations without splitting(black and white thinking) and this site has provided that more them any other I have found(including many non religious topic sites). Thank you all.
Now for something I have been pondering for a few months since I got the latest information from a extended family member TBM(I really dislike labels though). Genealogy work is very serious in our family tree. It’s far more them names and occupations of ancestors and goes to every little detail about their lives we can find. I imagine their are others out their like this so this posses the question on my mind. In the latest 2 years going into the very personal lives past even the 1700s now. Well in the latest installment my extended family member has chosen to share with the rest of the family the good and bad of our early pioneer ancestors. Apparently we go all the way back and have personal information from even
160 years before that now.
Now my extended family member has chosen to used the word “flawed” instead of the nearly perfect ancestors we were taught they were. He has chosen to share the good and the bad with the family in the latest genealogy letter with some prominent members back then. I haven’t had time to go threw it all yet as just this addition is 100s of pages with additional DVD documents and pictures, new papers, journals etc.
I haven’t asked him personally about all the details yet. But it’s apparent from what he has written
That they are “flawed pioneers” and that they posses both incredibly good and
Sometimes shameful actions. In other words, they were very human.
It comes from an older family member who had always firmly believed the our pioneer ancestors were this almost godly like humans with their faith and persecutions and actions.
Now coming to head he finds for himself through our own genealogy they are great but very flawed people that “aren’t really different them us”. Since this information is shared with the entire family and its a both happy and unnerving occasion I have to ask a question.
What do you do when a TBM especially in your own family comes across in correlated information that paints a different picture then the revered pioneer ancestors correlated information portrayed?
Information that comes across not through Internet or or unapproved groups etc. but from your own research and hands doing your genealogy work?
I gather from what I have read do far that he feels our ancestors ate great but flawed people but definitely not the immaculate faithful pioneers you hear trumpeted in say “legacy” or general conference etc.
would you share the information with your family as he has had? Would you quietly omit it ?
I personally like that his testimony wasn’t shaken but the reality of revering people to become “like them” is just fallacy. We are more or less like them already. As I read more I will try to comment.
But as I have found out. There are at least a few of us who will do our genealogy work and find a
More human personage even among prominent members that will make the trumpeting of the “be more like the pioneer saints” more tiring to hear our family now. But I am happy that personally my family is becoming more relaxed and less tense about their own failures or short comings now then they were when they thought they were just fractions of what the pioneers were. Now they see that they really weren’t to different then their own short comings. I breath a sigh of relief asy own family has has intense issues trying to make themselves and others as perfect a they were taught and thought the saints were. In short more realistic expectations of themselves and others. I’m happy for that. But what do you think? Would you share both the good and bad of the genealogy work?
How do you think this might effect other families that do their own genealogy work? I appreciate all the feedback that bis offered and please keep it civil as this site has done a good job of. I’ll add more as I read without dropping names, discussing people’s lives isn’t the point. Finding information first hand through your own research and piecing together the past and what you choose to do with it is.
Have a great day all.
I want to add that I am bad with written language so I apologize with bad redundancy, punctuation and articulation that I have problem with sometimes. Forgotten_Charity, Interesting question, I can see how unexpected history could “unnerve” some family members, especially those expecting near perfection. I suppose the question about what to do with unflattering information might depend on how it’s presented and the intent behind it. If it’s shared thoughtfully and honestly then I believe sharing all the truth is the thing to do.
My own family history (not done by me, but by a PhD uncle of mine) paints a very flawed picture of my family. He also found evidence that my ancestors unjustly killed horse thieves without trial. So are they faithful pioneers or murderous thugs? I think some context and some understanding of their times is necessary along with avoiding judgment in either a positive or negative way. It’s rarely black and white (as you note).
Having a more comprehensive look at history would help us more correctly understand ourselves. This applies not only to church history, but if we knew more about idolized figures across history and understood their motives, I think we would might be better humans.
I wold share both the good and bad because both offer some very good teaching moments. Presentation is important but I know I just feel more comfortable knowing that my friends and family know that I know that I am not a perfect man and as I have made mistakes or sinned, hopefully I have learned from this and that I can share what I have learned. I would find it fascinating to know my grandfather was Provo’s first bank robber instead of it’ s first banker. Maybe that’s just me but I find it much easier to be taught the good and bad than just the good and Find out that the bad parts were being hidden. I don’t like being lied to even when someone thinks they are trying to protect me. I think we can’t understand ourselves fully (and be fully charitable to ourselves) if we don’t know the ancestral source of our strengths and weaknesses. For that reason, I think it is more than just important to discover and acknowledge our flawed ancestors. I have a son named Levi Savage Wald. Levi Savage is a mormon hero, and a family icon.
I read Levi Savage’s personal journal last year…and…come to find out that Levi had three wives and children from all three. Two of them were his two teenage stepdaughters of his current wife.
Yeah, flawed. I guess. I might use a different word.
They never mention that kind of thing at church or in the movie.
Puts a whole new spin on “perfecting the Saints.” Who is more near perfection? The pioneers? The elderly that have been in the church their entire lives and therefore had the longest opportunity for improvement? It seems to me that we are all just people. Someone had a quote about how the very same people that have done great things are many times the same ones that have done shameful things. I know that could describe me. I try hard to cut people some slack and hope for the same treatment. The first speaker in Sacrament Meeting today was a man who talked about the theology behind the temple ordinances. It was a very good talk, and he started by sharing the story of his 3rd-great uncle – a captain in the Confederate army who was known for the brutality of his attack methods. This ancestor was captured and executed, essentially as a war criminal because of the way he acted in his command. The speaker then talked about two of his great-grandmothers and what wonderful women they were – that he wished he could have known them personally but how much he appreciated the stories he was told by the people who knew them.
His point in sharing the stories was to say that the Mormon concept of the Atonement and the accompanying temple work we do makes it possible for him to believe that his war criminal ancestor has a chance to be redeemed and saved just like his saintly ancestors.
I thought of this thread as he was talking and of the lessons that are there for us as we find our own flawed heritage.
I think honesty and openness is always the best policy. I’ve got one of those Mormon paradox stories. In my youth, I was a big fan of Orrin Porter Rockwell. I read several books on him and thought of him, as many do, as the modern-day Samson. Then, just a few years ago, I found the journal of my 5-greats-grandfather, Alexander McRae, from a fellow descendent. Turns out, Porter Rockwell murdered Alexander McRae’s son, in cold blood. Shot the boy right in front of the boy’s mother, in her front yard, in SLC. His alleged crime? Stealing a donkey. Needless to say, reading OPR stories in the abstract, he comes across as a bit of a rough character, a scamp, a colorful character. Then, when you find out he most likely murdered one of your forefathers, that changes a bit – not such a big fan of OPR anymore.
The last Mormon Expositor podcast was about OPR. Pretty good stuff. Didn’t realize he was the “short nerdy kid at school” that everyone picked on…except JS…that is why he was so loyal.
I recommend the podcast. Most of ME podcasts are good so far, except the missionary reality TV series.
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People generally are so much more complex than we realize. There is a really important lesson in that.
My grandfather (a truly great man) would often tell me about one of our ancestors who was an early member of the Quorum of the Seventies. He was released from that calling not because of sin but because he just didn’t DO anything. My grandfather would always chuckle over that story. My great grandfather was a devout coffee drinker until just a few months before one of his daughters was getting married…and then he’d stop long enough to get get a temple recommend and then resume once the temple wedding was over. I heard this story when I was young as well. I think I learned early on not to idealize or IDOLIZE my ancestors. I find their all too human qualities endearing in many ways. And I don’t think it diminishes their achievements one bit.
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