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I’ve lurked here for some time and finally decided to join here. I’ve been participating on the NOM board for some time under a different name. I thought I felt home there but recently I’ve felt like I may be in the minority. It feels like most people on that board are looking for a way out. That’s not in the cards for me. I actually WANT to stay lds. Looking back as a child my mother would go from active to inactive two or three times a year. My father was never a member. I grew up in a diverse family. My mothers side is VERY devout. “Nazi” mormons is what I would have called them before. My fathers side, not even close. Most of my uncles were in and out of rehab and/or prison. I don’t think I remember a time when at least one wasn’t “on a trip”.
I don’t think I ever was a literal believer of the bible. I didn’t think any of it ACTUALLY happened.
When I met my soon to be wife I was re-investigating the church. I had been completely inactive for 20+ years. She was wanting someone to take her to the temple and I thought that was something I wanted as well. As we continued dating I became more motivated to go forward with getting myself ready for the temple.
We were married but not sealed in 2002. Shortly after we were married, we found out that we were expecting a baby. But unfortunately miscarried. In the hospital we had asked my uncle and grandfather to come give us a blessing of comfort. And in the hospital room my grandfather actually said “this is actually a good thing because you wouldn’t want a baby born not under the covenant.” That stung.
Shortly we were sealed we discovered we were expecting again. Our first daughter was born in 2004.
In 2006 we had another one on the way. But at 36 weeks we lost her. Our second Daughter died of a “cord accident” in the womb. This was the hardest blow to my faith. I was filled with anger. How could this happen to us? I stopped going to church for a year.
Our third daughter was born in 2007 with few complications.
Then came my Son in 2009. He was a big surprise. And we almost lost him AND my wife when he was born. He was 10 weeks premature and due to a complication to all the previous c-sections my wife had, she began to hemorrhage. It was to scariest day in my life. I didn’t pray once.
Now things have calmed down. I find myself looking back and really looking at what my wife and I have gone through and really wonder how much God had to do with things and how much was just pure coincidence. I often wonder why God would take our second daughter while we were both deeply involved and true believers.
I don’t sit in sacrament meeting with wonder like I used to. I can barely make it through class. Nothing is brought up that truly feels inspired anymore. I’m bitter and disappointed with the church over prop 8 and the treatment of gay members. I find my marriage suffering.
I need to find some kind of spark to ignite some desire to attend without feeling like I’m the only person in the whole dang building that questions the validity of it all.
Wow. What a journey.
I hope you can find a spark here at StayLDS.
Choreboy, thank you for your Introduction. Your experiences may be different but your feelings & reactions to situations are very similar with many of us at this site. I can especially relate to the feelings of anger & questioning God when my challenges occurred.
Regarding the remark made by your Grandfather. Sometimes we make dumb remarks when we try to motivate. Maybe it can explained with
old age?
This is a good place to work things out. We want to hear more from you.
Welcome.
Welcome. I hope you find a degree of peace, comfort and support here. My mother had three miscarriages and a stillborn baby her first four pregnancies. Although I have not experienced anything like that, I grew up knowing how brutally hard it was for both of my parents.
Fwiw, people say some really stupid, insensitive things sincerely thinking they are helping. I’ve done it, so, as much as I cringed, literally, when I read your grandfather’s crazy statement, I understand he really was trying to provide perspective – as misguided as he was. That’s easy for me to say, but I hope you can recognize it, at least, as a sincere effort.
Welcome…I hang out on NOM too…this is a better place if you are trying to staylds. Not as much bitterness…more people trying to understand and cope amidst a sense that “not all is well in zion…in fact some tings really stink”. We never lost a child so late though we had 5 miscarriages and we nearly lost my wife to an unknown tubal pregnancy. My family still struuggles with the loss of my 18 year old niece in 2006. She drowned in the Deschutes river while on a Young womens raft trip.
Personally…i don’t think God spends a lot of time making things happen or not happen. I think we are here to gain experience and things happen…not by direct design but by random chance….I believe God comes in when it comes to healing, nurturing, forgiving. I think God knows when we are damaged to the point where full recovery may not happen in this life and that is what eternity is for. The God that gets to take credit for the good but gets left out of the bad doesn’t exist for me. I am so sorry for your suffering, cling to those around you, seek god to achieve serenity with those around you. I do believe suffering has great power….it can fill us with empathy, or it can fill us with bitterness, or it can make us curl up into a fetal position and cry….many times it brings all three….but when we get to the part where it fills us with empathy i think that is when we are most like god.
Welcome…I am a newbie too!
Welcome choreboy… interesting handle. I agree with what others have said, if you want to Stay LDS, this is the right place. I do like NOM a lot, but for that side of me that simply wants to vent and share my heretic views…yeah, I have that side. I think the NOM folk are very loving and kind, although the prevailing tendency borders on exmo. There are some really, really fine people there.
I can relate to the suffering of lost children at least in terms of miscarriages and the like. We had that too, although not as late term. As well, there are so many cases where bad things happen that it more than stretches the credulity of the standard definition of god as taught by the church…it breaks it.
While I don’t want to suggest in any way “there is no god”, I think our god definition needs to be changed. We need to understand how we as humans form our understanding of god, and from there, realize that god — in our new definition — is much closer to us — a constant companion and friend we’ve always had, and always will have, but limited in how s/he answers our prayers. I put some thoughts to this in a post called, “
The God WithinI will submit to you that there is a faithful Middle Way within the church, one of full activity, while coming to a personal understanding of what truth is for you. Although there are many people who reject Middle Way, NOM, or anything short of “all or nothing” true believing status, many of us cannot return there. Many of us here have found a satisfying place where the church has incredible value, truthfulness in a meaningful way, yet are not “true believing” in the sense normally understood by members.
I, for one, will separate “faith” from “belief”, in a way that confuses people, but it helps me deal with my lack of belief in a number of truth claims in the church. That’s what works for me, among other things. Finding what works certainly took a lot of time — I can actually point to an event 25 years ago that started me on this journey, and it’s been a wild ride. But today, I can say I’m comfortable in this journey, and feel as strongly about my more pragmatic ‘testimony’ (what I hold to be true) than I ever did as a TBM.
To me, I needed to define
what I believeWe’re here to help…and by hearing your stories, you help us as well…more than you ever can know.
Welcome Choreboy, glad to have you here. It sounds like you’ve had a rough time of it with some things – I’m sorry to hear that. I’m a relative newcomer myself and I’ve learned a lot here and found out that I’m not alone in my frustration and disappointment. I also find myself uplifted and with hope after hearing others’ thoughts and ways at looking at things. Hopefully you’ll find something of value here. For me the question of why would a loving Heavenly Father allows bad things happen to good or to innocent people (like children) is one thing I have always struggled with. One of my daughters was born with birth defects and while she’s ok now, it was difficult for several years. Why a loving HF would start somebody out with serious disadvantages in this life is something I have a hard time accepting. We talk about life being a “test” but this “test” varies enormously in difficulty according to which version you get. In the end I’ve decided that it’s physics and/or chemistry that caused the birth defects and not some capricious supernatural being.
People say some really stupid things, including family members who should know better. I’ve tried to adopt a charitable attitude towards them by choosing to believe that they are ignorant but well meaning. People have said things to my daughter who is able to ignore them and chalk it up as stupidity. Along the same lines, I was adopted as a small child, and I infrequently hear hurtful things along the lines of “your adopted parents love you so much more than your birth parents” or “I’d rather my daughter be in the grave than have a child out of marriage” (my own father said the latter although I like to think he’s improved over the years). My birth mother, who I’ve met and talk to occasionally,said that while she was pregnant as an LDS teenager in the 1970’s that some of the most obtuse and mean people she’s met were LDS. Simultaneously she’s said that some of the most caring and understanding people she’s ever met were LDS. I guess we as a people can be both.
I guess my point in saying all this is that you’re not alone and that many here can relate to what you’re going through. I hope you find what you’re looking for.
Choreboy wrote:In 2006 we had another one on the way. But at 36 weeks we lost her. Our second Daughter died of a “cord accident” in the womb. This was the hardest blow to my faith. I was filled with anger. How could this happen to us? I stopped going to church for a year.
Now things have calmed down. I find myself looking back and really looking at what my wife and I have gone through and really wonder how much God had to do with things and how much was just pure coincidence. I often wonder why God would take our second daughter while we were both deeply involved and true believers.
Welcome Choreboy,
Our story is very similar. We lost our daughter in stillbirth just a few days before the scheduled due date. The grief process has changed me radically. Perhaps the biggest sign of this change has been my faith crisis or transformation. Although our loss was 3 years ago, we are reluctant to try again because the same circumstances (pre-existing conditions) that led to the first stillbirth are still present.
I hope to be a resource for you. Please read my introduction that includes my original intro while things were still pretty raw and an update I wrote about a year later with details of some coping strategies that are working fairly well for me at this time. If you have any questions or comments – I am an open book.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1937 If I can assist in any way beyond that (by phone or email, etc.), I am willing.
Choreboy wrote:my grandfather actually said “this is actually a good thing because you wouldn’t want a baby born not under the covenant.” That stung.
As far as stupid things people say – I’ve had my share. Before the funeral, I was talking to my FIL about how unaware I had been about the possibility of a stillbirth – as if that was a thing stamped out by modern medical science. He said, “It still happens in third world countries all the time.” Completely sidestepping the fact that is also happens here and now in the good old USA and inadvertently making me feel like this situation and we as a couple are not “normal”.
Some years later, I confided in a good LDS friend our decision not to sue (which had been a very difficult decision for us) and the response was, “Why would you want to sue? You’re going to have her back in the eternities anyways.”
In reading on the subject and in talking to others in similar situations, I am convinced that people in general are not very comfortable with death and grief. In an effort to make your grief less palatable and themselves more comfortable they tend to say stupid things along the vein of, “You should move on.” This does not appear to be an exclusively Mormon phenomenon, although Mormon doctrine may be invoked to achieve a similar purpose.
I have found a bit of a home here. I have found and experimented with different ways to approach faith and re-engage with the church. Some days are better than others, but overall I am very thankful for those here that I could vent to without being labeled as an apostate. More than just fueling the flames of discontent, they have helped me to grow new mental tools to help adapt.
They have truly helped me in my time of need.
I hope now to help others and “pay it forward.”
Welcome.
Hi. Welcome to the StayLDS community! Thanks all for the warm welcome. It’s nice to know I’m not the only one here struggling. I’ll keep my NOM account active because I know I’ll need somewhere to release some snarkiness. 😈 Quote:I’ve lurked here for some time and finally decided to join here. I’ve been participating on the NOM board for some time under a different name. I thought I felt home there but recently I’ve felt like I may be in the minority. It feels like most people on that board are looking for a way out. That’s not in the cards for me. I actually WANT to stay lds.
I have found the same thing. I looking for a way to stay because that is what I want to do. I actually like going to church and serving even if at times it does get frustrating. It seem many on NOM are out, waiting to get out or wishing they were out but can’t for other reasons. That’s fine if that is how they feel and I have had some of those thoughts at times too but still I recognized that most of the good things in my life have some sort of connection to my membership in the church.
Quote:We were married but not sealed in 2002. Shortly after we were married, we found out that we were expecting a baby. But unfortunately miscarried. In the hospital we had asked my uncle and grandfather to come give us a blessing of comfort. And in the hospital room my grandfather actually said “this is actually a good thing because you wouldn’t want a baby born not under the covenant.” That stung.
Sorry to hear about this and the other losses you have faced. I lost a daughter a few years ago from suicide. I was told because she was born under the covenant that things would be alright. It really didn’t make me feel better, but I have learned that at times people don’t know what to say or how to comfort us so they say dumb things. I just have to hope and trust that their intentions were good.
Quote:Now things have calmed down. I find myself looking back and really looking at what my wife and I have gone through and really wonder how much God had to do with things and how much was just pure coincidence. I often wonder why God would take our second daughter while we were both deeply involved and true believers.
Good questions and if you ever get an answer please let me know.
Quote:I don’t sit in sacrament meeting with wonder like I used to. I can barely make it through class. Nothing is brought up that truly feels inspired anymore. I’m bitter and disappointed with the church over prop 8 and the treatment of gay members. I find my marriage suffering.
I need to find some kind of spark to ignite some desire to attend without feeling like I’m the only person in the whole dang building that questions the validity of it all.
Believe me Brother when I say you are not alone in this. There are many that feel this way and you would be surprised how many other people at church feel the same but don’t want to admit it to themselves or to anyone else. I have opened up to a few people (not all my issues) and have found that many have the same feelings but they don’t know what to do with them. We all have built the shelves and are loading them up, it only when they crash that we feel the pain and panic.
Welcome>
johnh wrote:Personally…i don’t think God spends a lot of time making things happen or not happen. I think we are here to gain experience and things happen…not by direct design but by random chance….
I agree with this.Welcome to the forum.
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