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This came up in a discussion with the great philosopher CWald and his muse JWald while dining on BBQ. I couldn’t put the idea a way. I REALLY like to have things make sense (probably due to my engineering background)….which is what got me into “Faith Crisis” territory in the first place. This seems to almost make it all workout….at least in my demented mind.
The thought is…what if JS was just (not trying to demean him) another reformer? Like Martin Luther, John Clavin, etc. Heck even Buddha and Mohammed.
This kind of could make sense…An honest country boy seeking enlightenment…just enough naivety and belief in the not normal that he could recieve the vision and later inspiration to write a tale that teaches eternal principals. Heck even polygamy as first discussed could have been an attempt by higher powers to pull the stick out of our societal bum’s (and if it had worked we likely would not have near the homophobia we see today). He came, he taught, he took a lickin’ and kept on tickin’ until his time came and he was taken.
After that the story is not a lot different than other reformers…followers tried to pick up where he left off…many going through the mechanics while not quite getting the spirit….to me this pretty much describes Brigham Young. Took JS concepts and discussion and turned them into hard fast rules. The “Yankee Guesser” as he called himself didn’t even like to be called a prophet from what it sounds like. Descriptions by apostles about how decisions are made definietely don’t sound a lot different than other church “boards” that i have heard about.
Ithis helps me as I tend to lean towards the idea of “there is an intelligence who wants to enlighten the minds of mankind…to see us collectively and individually reach our fullest potential” and is ok with whatever name we give to him/her/it as being fully enlightened doesn’t get the heavenly panties in a twist becuase we don’t give proper deference. So the reformers come as people are prepared…some make a big splash, others a small one…many on this board could be reformers each in their areas…each one creating a small stake of zion that has nothing to do with the LDS organization but does come into alignment with the greater goal of God.
What do you think? Am I now damned to hell for heresy? If so…maybe they get to eat meat still down there and I can bring my Smoker/bbq
👿 JohnH
I think that view is reasonable, logical, enlightening, actually quite powerful – and absolutely heretical. I love, honor, respect and am profoundly impressed by Joseph, but an important part of that is my willingness to accept him as an actual mortal – just like the rest of us. When he said, “it is our sad experience . . . nearly all men . . . unrighteous dominion . . .” I believe he was part of “nearly all men” who learn from their own “sad experience(s)”. I personally put the theology he taught WAY above other reformers, the good stuff he did a bit above other reformers, the bad stuff he did on par with or slightly below most other reformers, etc. In other words, I see him as one of the great ones – with all the extremes the great ones inevitably possess.
He was told his name would be had for good and evil – and I take that more literally, ironically, than most members.
Finally, he did what he did – but I am more concerned about myself doing what I do, as well as those living in my own time. I like to ask myself,
Quote:What do I learn from Joseph, and how do I allow that to change me?
I think he’s definitely a reformer, but whether that precludes anything else is another question. He tries to make a moribund religion live again, and not rely on dead scriptures, but recent ones.
I agree with cwald’s idea that he would have been ex’d from the current church. He was too young to be a leader of the entire church for one.
He would definitely have been ex’d…but that makes me think he is a reformer even more. I think reformation is 3 steps forward and 1 step backward. I bet if you bring any of them….even in non-religious in modern history…think of MLK…would he like the progress made? Yes…would he like the politics of race relations? I don’t think so…and I consider him a great reformer. I also agree that Joseph was a mighty reformer…he broke a barrier…he got the idea through that the heavens are open, that there is no excuse for mean judgementalism..he also fell to his hormones a bit…like any rockstar of any age and probably struggled with justification of his actions and sorrow as well. Damn the hormones and their control over the male mind
😳 I tend to think that new reformer may be coming …Uchtdorf the mighty? I dunno…it could be completely from outside the church…it could be a non-chrisitian…but if there is divine design then the human race could be looking at a new giant leap forward of equal or greater proportions than the last one ( I think CWald has said something along these lines too…him and his nutty folksy wisdom!)…I find that idea quite exciting.
Of course Joseph was a reformer. I think the greatest reformation that came from JS is that we should question, and if necessary reject authority. And that all men and woman can go straight to the gods and do not have to rely on ecclesiastical leaders.
If the LDS church has a problem with that concept…so be it. Complain to God and Joseph Smith…they are ones who reformed religion and created the philosophy of Mormonism, not me.
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Great thread all. I’ve read most of the claims that Joseph was a sexual despot and I just don’t buy it. I first and foremost believe in God. A God who we have some interaction with. Based on that I believe there was inspiration in Joseph’s actions.
Joseph as a reformer works just as well as a restorer for me because the outcome is still valid.
The church is no more than a vehicle. An imperfect one. But it is useful enough.
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