Reform to what?

…my real question is reform to what, and does it make any difference? If you are trying to reform a broken system you may get some improvement here and there but can you reform the whole thing? If it is based on fictional accounts to begin with how do you reform that? You can not go from fiction to fact, or at least I do not think you can.

I would mostly like to see a kinder gentler church in my lifetime. To me what is worst about the Church is not really false ideas presented as the truth by themselves as much as all the heavy costs, tedious and unenjoyable meetings, guilt-trips, and overbearing expectations and judgmental attitudes of other members. Basically, I think the Church relies way too much on peer pressure, the commitment pattern, and a general feeling of obligation to get people to do things they don’t really want to and that’s one thing I would like to see them cut down on. For example, the Church would not have to publicly admit their fundamental truth claims are false to get rid of tithing settlement, stop asking members to report home teaching statistics, or make other changes like that.

A kinder gentler church? I could actually go for that. Maybe throw in some real effort to be honest in their dealings would help.

…get rid of tithing settlement, stop asking members to report home teaching statistics, or make other changes like that.

I agree somewhat with what you’re saying Devil. I would like a gentler church as well. I’d love it if we focused more on Grace and less (though not completely) on works. I’d love it if the church taught correct principles and then let us govern ourselves…But as far as tithing settlement and home teaching reports go, I see it this way. Yes the make us feel pressure to do something. They create accountability and this drives us to action. The church doesn’t have a monopoly on this principle since I see it used in business quite often. Good managers follow up on tasks they assign to make sure they are being done…it’s an act of love that they spend the time to do so…

I understand that these tactics work fairly well to get things done and that’s why they use them so much maybe even subconsciously in many cases. I just think they really overdo it and they are basically manipulating people into do doing many things that don’t necessarily need to be done at all to begin with. Is visiting most of these members once per month really any better than visiting them once or twice per year? To me it always seemed mostly like a pointless hassle to both the visitors and visited so to expect this frequency of home teaching in every case just doesn’t make that much sense in my opinion.

If there is some happy medium where most people can feel fairly comfortable with what they are being asked to believe and do then in my opinion the Church has clearly gone way beyond that and that’s one reason why so many members no longer want anything to do with the Church and many of the remaining active members are mostly going along with all this because they think that’s what they are supposed to do and it’s what others expect out of them. That’s what really makes the supposed truth of the doctrines more important than it would be otherwise in my opinion because without that much of the sense of obligation that the Church currently depends on so much is lost in the process of losing faith in the doctrines.

There is always alot of talk in the DAMU of reforming the church. There are comparisons drawn to other religions that went through a reformation. Some see a need to reform in areas of history, or equal rights, or financial integrity. I for one would not mind a little reformation, but then I have my own agenda. So my real question is reform to what, and does it make any difference? If you are trying to reform a broken system you may get some improvement here and there but can you reform the whole thing? If it is based on fictional accounts to begin with how do you reform that? You can not go from fiction to fact, or at least I do not think you can.

It seems to me if you take the notion that reform is truly needed you are coming from one of two angles. Either you believe the founding of the church was god inspired and we have somewhat strayed and need to get back on course, or you just plain do not like what you see and want to reform it to fit your world view. Of course maybe you are like me and want to see reform so this baggage I carry from the church gets a little lighter, and my children get even less baggage than me. I am not hopeful, so I see why many just walk away completely.

The only wish I have is that the nonsense that gets perpetuated generation to generation, that there was some way to eliminate it. I know if you asked FP or the Q12, almost everyone of them would say Evolution might be real, the earth may be billions of years old, Joseph used a seer stone, Sealings to already married women by Bro. joseph occured, Jesus likely wasn’t born on april 6th, Black people were not cursed, We don’t know why coffee and tea are banned other then God said so, polygamy is certainly not required for exhaltation, perfect obedience is impossible (though required becasue it pushes us) and it is on God’s Grace and merits we are savedect… yet we have very little outlet to correct these things unless the you’s and me’s speak up and many of us are already looked at as troublesome and unfundamental in our beliefs… I want that fixed. Once it is, then I can move on my merry way and shut my participation in discussion boards and podcasts down. ……. should I look for another hobby?

There is always alot of talk in the DAMU of reforming the church. There are comparisons drawn to other religions that went through a reformation. Some see a need to reform in areas of history, or equal rights, or financial integrity. I for one would not mind a little reformation, but then I have my own agenda. So my real question is reform to what, and does it make any difference? If you are trying to reform a broken system you may get some improvement here and there but can you reform the whole thing? If it is based on fictional accounts to begin with how do you reform that? You can not go from fiction to fact, or at least I do not think you can.

It seems to me if you take the notion that reform is truly needed you are coming from one of two angles. Either you believe the founding of the church was god inspired and we have somewhat strayed and need to get back on course, or you just plain do not like what you see and want to reform it to fit your world view. Of course maybe you are like me and want to see reform so this baggage I carry from the church gets a little lighter, and my children get even less baggage than me. I am not hopeful, so I see why many just walk away completely.

The only wish I have is that the nonsense that gets perpetuated generation to generation, that there was some way to eliminate it. I know if you asked FP or the Q12, almost everyone of them would say Evolution might be real, the earth may be billions of years old, Joseph used a seer stone, Sealings to already married women by Bro. joseph occured, Jesus likely wasn’t born on april 6th, Black people were not cursed, We don’t know why coffee and tea are banned other then God said so, polygamy is certainly not required for exhaltation, perfect obedience is impossible (though required becasue it pushes us) and it is on God’s Grace and merits we are savedect… yet we have very little outlet to correct these things unless the you’s and me’s speak up and many of us are already looked at as troublesome and unfundamental in our beliefs… I want that fixed. Once it is, then I can move on my merry way and shut my participation in discussion boards and podcasts down. ……. should I look for another hobby?

If almost every one of them would say it, then please say it – in a time, place and manner that it most likely to be heard and understood by regular members. (Nothing’s perfect, I understand that.) I get frustrated with the idea that the brethren are somewhat helpless to fix a lot of these problems.

The only wish I have is that the nonsense that gets perpetuated generation to generation, that there was some way to eliminate it. I know if you asked FP or the Q12, almost everyone of them would say Evolution might be real, the earth may be billions of years old, Joseph used a seer stone, Sealings to already married women by Bro. joseph occured, Jesus likely wasn’t born on april 6th, Black people were not cursed, We don’t know why coffee and tea are banned other then God said so, polygamy is certainly not required for exhaltation, perfect obedience is impossible (though required becasue it pushes us) and it is on God’s Grace and merits we are savedect… yet we have very little outlet to correct these things unless the you’s and me’s speak up and many of us are already looked at as troublesome and unfundamental in our beliefs… I want that fixed. Once it is, then I can move on my merry way and shut my participation in discussion boards and podcasts down. ……. should I look for another hobby?

Yes! Yes, yes, yes!!!

Stop the “mainstreaming”, and say “Yes, we’re kinda weird, but guess what, some of these are cool doctrines.” All the talk about divine potential is actually incredibly tame compared to what New Agers teach, let alone Scientology!!! We’re different, we should be proud to be different, and what’s more, any of the bad crap in the past has been dropped or should be dropped…

Double yes!

Stop the “mainstreaming”, and say “Yes, we’re kinda weird, but guess what, some of these are cool doctrines.” All the talk about divine potential is actually incredibly tame compared to what New Agers teach, let alone Scientology!!! We’re different, we should be proud to be different, and what’s more, any of the bad crap in the past has been dropped or should be dropped…

Wow….you sound like the end lecture from the Mormon kid in south park “about the mormons” episdoe (i don’t normally watch it but was referred to this episode). Well…then you have to say “Suck my b*lls dude”

Not knocking it…i actually thought it was a fairly profound episode that sort of supported mormonism as a good thing….in fact i the a lot of leaders should watch it and listen close to the last 2 minutes…..and then lighten up.