Searching for God

Welcome Matt!

I look forward to you sharing more of your journey with us and participating in our discussions! :wave:

I struggle with the statement I hear repeatedly (especially on the first Sunday of the month) that members “know the church is true.” What does this statement even mean? It could mean any number of things.

It means different things to different people. I find it uncomfortable too. But I find it equally uncomfortable when people say they know it’s not true. It is that people claim knowledge of something that is in the realm of belief that doesn’t work for me. But people are seldom precise in their language.

At times, I find the church to be almost stiflingly dogmatic.

I totally agree! Someone said that some parents are “authoritarian” (credible based on respect for authority – “do it because I said so”) while others are “authoritative” (credible based on personal experience with their advice or accurate information provided). I think somewhere the church went from being primarily the latter to being primarily the former. But it’s a cultural shift – some members seem to require being told what to do. They are more comfortable with someone else calling the shots rather than taking responsibility for their own choices.

Thanks everyone! An open forum like this really makes me wish we could all meet in our own special Sunday School class every week. With what I’ve gleaned from the site and the forum already, I think so many of you have probably experienced things that could be very insightful to me right now.

I find it equally uncomfortable when people say they know it’s not true.

Absolutely, 100% amen to that.

Someone said that some parents are “authoritarian” (credible based on respect for authority – “do it because I said so”) while others are “authoritative” (credible based on personal experience with their advice or accurate information provided). I think somewhere the church went from being primarily the latter to being primarily the former. But it’s a cultural shift – some members seem to require being told what to do. They are more comfortable with someone else calling the shots rather than taking responsibility for their own choices.

hawkgrrrl, great line of thought! As a new parent I have contemplated the idea of how much to shelter my child. The movie Finding Nemo often comes to mind. In one particular instance I believe Marlin is explaining their need to escape because of a promise he made to his son to protect him.

Marlin: I promised I’d never let anything happen to him.

Dory: Hmm. That’s a funny thing to promise.

Marlin: What?

Dory: Well, you can’t never let anything happen to him. Then nothing would ever happen to him. Not much fun for little Harpo.

I think it can safely be said that Dory’s comment runs far deeper than the realm of “fun,” and can be applied in a far wider scope than that of parenthood. I often feel like I’m a child of the church organization, and the church is so afraid of losing me and is trying so hard to protect me that I’m missing out on the entire purpose of life. Richard Rohr alludes to the idea that life is all about the fall. We fall, we recognize the fall, we surrender our egos, we let God or others help pick us back up (sanctify us), and as a result we have a more valuable understanding of existence. Rinse and repeat…until the day we die and maybe beyond. One of the things I distinctly remember my father mentioning in response to some of my probing questions was, “We just don’t ask those questions.” Luckily, I think I’ve realized that the way I should have interpreted that was Those are hard questions, and the answers we DO have are not always pleasant or easy to understand.

Welcome Matt,

Good to have you here. Sounds like you’ve put a lot of thought and soul-searching in this. I look forward to your insights. A couple of things you said below resonate with me.

I struggle with the statement I hear repeatedly (especially on the first Sunday of the month) that members “know the church is true.” What does this statement even mean?

I struggle with this a lot and these days I never say “I know the church is true.” I say the Gospel is true or I know God lives. I will say I know Joseph Smith restored the church and that the BofM is scripture, but what I don’t say publicly is that my definition of scripture my differ from theirs and that by “restored the church” I basically mean he started the church. Even saying I “know” God lives is a bit of a stretch since it’s really more of a “I really really hope we have a benevolent, loving Heavenly Father.”

One of the groups I can not currently side with, however, is the atheist, and this is for two reasons. 1) They have no more evidence of the true origins of our existence than the theists. If the universe sprang into existence with a bang, who pulled the trigger? 2) I find the atheist’s view of the afterlife to be a bit too depressing.

1) agree

and

2) agree

I find a true atheist position illogical and inconsistent and so I consider myself sort of an agnostic deist if there is such a thing. I’ve seen things that tend to point to a creator, and as an amateur astronomer it still seems that someone would have to pull the big-bang trigger as you put it. Plus I think living forever with a beautiful wife with both of us having perfect bodies would be fun. Disappearing into nothingness is indeed depressing.

Thank you, Matt. That was a very articulate explanation that closely mirrors my own. I like your “agnostic theist” category. I guess I’d say I’m one or two steps further right (or is it left?) of you in that I do firmly believe there is a God, but once we get further away from that core my beliefs become more agnostic.

I particularly liked your point about staying with the Church for the simple reason that no other alternative church or religion stands out as being demonstrably better. While I’m certainly not a TBM any longer, I don’t see any other church or faith system out there that will scratch my particular itch, so I stay with the Church since it’s as good a fit for me as anything else would be.

Welcome, mate.

I think owning our spirituality is the key to reconciling with the church, because then we completely own the church in our life. Too often I still feel like the church owns me. I don’t want to trivialize the trauma many of us have experienced in the church, but too often that is a result of resisting spiritual yearnings that are leading us down other paths. We blame the church for our own unhealthy attachments to it. I think I now own about 80% of my spirituality, but I’ll know I own it completely when I can say, “I don’t blame the church for anything.”

That is a great way to put it! :thumbup:

turinturambar wrote:

It seems in our church culture that it’s not OK to not know. Or to admit you don’t know.

I very much agree. And even if it is OK to not know, it can be really scary to admit our uncertainty to others. I don’t think any of us want to disappoint our friends or loved ones. However, I think I’m finally realizing that nobody is forcing me to keep up appearances, and that being honest with myself is more freeing than anything I’ve ever felt in my life. One scripture (which is actually very similar to the one that you shared) that has helped me feel so much more at ease with my new, honest, inquisitive stance is one that a missionary recently shared with my family at dinner. I mentioned I was struggling with knowledge claims in the church, and he turned to D&C 46 and drew a distinction between knowledge and belief.

D&C 46:

11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.

12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

Indeed, verses 13 and 14 appear to declare that knowledge and belief are distinctly different, and that both are equally acceptable. It was so comforting to find scripture telling me that not knowing is OK. In addition, this scripture reminded me that some people may indeed know, and that I shouldn’t go down the road of assuming that nobody knows just because I don’t.