Choosing to come to earth

I agree with hawkgrrrl on this. There is serious reprocusions and holes in this theology.

I don’t have many answers but the one thing that really bothers me with this folklore is that since we now know DNA dictates how we will look and evolve physically and we can choose who we marry with many races

And people having long had many mothers or fathers. The idea that my spirit looks like me before my fathers or mothers DNA got invloved so that I do look like me, and them. It recks havoc on this concept. Kind of like saying both the chicken and the egg came at the same time while simultaneously influencing each others looks and yet having none at the same time. Also how would this theology play out before marraige was invented. 10s of thousands of years we were replicating before marriage even came about. I am not certain, but I am certain if what it is not. Process of deductive reasoning.

How ever I strongly believe that all this is irrelevant, what matters is what we choose to do now. Not in the distant past or the distant future. The chooses we make have an effect to us and those around us. There’s a comprise around there somewhere. My fiancé apologies to me for being born so far away apart.

I ask her to please stop thinking in that. This is a belief I have seen harm people who take it very personal. She gets depressed at times for her wrong choice to her father and being born so far away from me.

As I express non of that matters.

I found yodas expression to Luke sky walker most liked belief and most helpful in my life.

“This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away… to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing.

Ditto for the past.

When I started living this ideology, my choices had a more positive effect on myself and those around me. I was and am happier living that way. I think spiritual and intellectual growth go hand in hand. I look at them as companions that help and keep each other in check and balance. In general I love stories and folklore and history. Judy not any ideology that prompts others up while suppressing others or making them sad over things they have no memory of.

This is one of those.

I think it’s all Mormon folklore.

Something I did think of that could lead to whole ‘nother discussion is when does the spirit enter the body. That could account for for gender misassignment.

If we were all present for the great council when 2/3 of the spirits accepted the Plan of Happiness then there must be a finite number of spirits for this planet and they have all been created. Once the last spirit gets a body then it’s time for the end. The Guf is empty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guf Anyone seen the movie The Seventh Sign? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seventh_Sign

Should I get a job as an apologetic?

When I was a missionary I felt there was an analogy to this. I do feel that I chose to come to earth. I don’t think I chose where. In the same manner I chose to serve a mission, I didn’t choose where.

I think that part of coming here was that we knew the level of suffering that would exist and that we would have to put up with it. But I think that God is suffering more than we are. He knows individual suffering and now he’s watching his creations(us) collectively suffer. But I think he knows, and we knew before this life, how many horrible things would go on on this earth. But he also knows that something much greater lies after and that the suffering here is not permanent. But I think that if he were to intervene to stop the suffering it would violate the laws of our “test” and it would be for naught. In this way I see God as subject to laws the same as us. I believe that the purpose of this life–the learning of how to use our free-agency–is such a glorious cause that God himself cannot violate it.

On a side: It’s ironic that the idea of a God that constantly would intervene to take away suffering and make everyone live in a utopia was basically what we are taught is “Satan’s plan”. Sometimes it sounds so much better, doesn’t it?

Personally I believe that we all understood this life would be replete with suffering in the pre-mortal world–as best we could anyways. Those who turned away and “rebelled” would be those who simply did not trust the Father that it would be worth it. Their problem was a lack of faith, a lack of willingness to endure suffering believing it would bring the blessing promised by the Father.

Back to my mission analogy, It was the hardest, worst 2 years I have ever endured. I fought with my companions, I struggled with extraneous doctrines taught by them. I struggled with mismanaged wards with very imperfect leaders. But for me, it was so worth it. It shattered my previous world view. It liberated me from the “church is perfect” idea where I was made to feel I was never good enough. It helped me realize that mormon cultural ideas shouldn’t be construed as doctrine simply because someone with a title said it once. It made me realize that mormons are absolutely not better than anyone else because there is more truth or god loves them more. It took me out of my middle class suburban surroundings and forced me to realize the worth of people I would have simply considered inferior at an earlier time in my life.

It was the catalyst for starting me on this journey to a greater understanding. It changed me in ways I didn’t think possible. I gained confidence, good study habits, better critical thinking skills, and a whole slew of other “blessings”.

All this while I was disobedient. I slept in, studied unapproved religious and philosophical books as much as the scriptures, listened to music I wasn’t supposed to, didn’t do any of the BS salesman stuff we were taught in meetings, had horrible numbers because I refused to lie unlike everyone else. And half my companions probably thought I was anti-mormon because I questioned every urban legend about 3 nephites or garments stopping bullets I ever heard… And yet somehow I came away with all of this good. The only casualty was the naïve testimony of my youth. And maybe some cracks in the testimonies of my companions…

Anyways, this analogy speaks to me in ways that are hard to explain in a forum. The idea that this life is hard. But it’s a finite time. And it’s only looking back when it’s over that we will realize what our experiences here have molded us to be. I believe I chose to come here. Not to my family per se, but to wherever God or the universe or the “crap-shoot” sent me. I believe at one time I had the faith in God to submit to whatever suffering this life had in store for me the same as I submitted to my mission call to a place I would never have chosen. But I learned to endure that 2 years and came out better. So I can try to learn to endure this life trusting that whatever suffering I endure, when I look back on this life, I will be grateful for the experiences gained and what I will have become. I can’t expect God to come here and take away that suffering for me any more than I could have expected my Dad to come knock doors for me on my mission or tell my companions off for me. The result would have made me a worse person, not better.

And on a little tangent:

And for those of us who are lucky enough to not be born in a place like Somalia I believe that we have an absolute duty to relieve suffering as best we can in such places. Heavenly Father may not intervene in literal “deus ex machina” style to take away suffering, but Jesus sure did while here on the earth. That’s why we’re taught to emulate Him. How the prevailing political attitudes of members (especially here in Utah) has shifted from a form of communism where excess was shared so everyone could live decently to libertarianism is beyond me. When I hear someone on the HC at church talking to a member of the Bishopric after sacrament meeting following the election about how he needs to stock up on bullets to defend his food storage since the world is going to collapse…well, I don’t see any bit of Christ reflected through him. I think we should feel a bit uneasy when we are born to better circumstances than others. But the proper response is to be charitable, not invent stories about how they’re suffering from being fence-sitters, or not valiant, or because of Cain’s curse, or whatever. Christ wouldn’t have cared. That’s part of our test. Not to sit on our fortunate high horse, but to use our blessings to help bless others. Not to try and ignore their suffering, but to lower ourselves into it a little bit and try to raise them up.

I feel my parents chose me. But did we choose the events?

That girl who broke your heart at 17, was that planned? That contradicts free will.

I feel my parents chose me. But did we choose the events?

That girl who broke your heart at 17, was that planned? That contradicts free will.

Could you expound on this please? I’m having a hard time wrapping my mind around it?

Lets not forget animals. How we have bred them to look and behave a certain way. Is that who they were all along? And although it is comforting to think that you will see the beloved family pet again in heaven, if that is true then heaven is going to be chock full of chickens! Were there that many chicken spirits waiting to come to earth?

I feel my parents chose me. But did we choose the events?

That girl who broke your heart at 17, was that planned? That contradicts free will.

Could you expound on this please? I’m having a hard time wrapping my mind around it?

Sure.

It’s hard to explain but my parents made certain remarks to me, especially my mother. She said she preferred having a boy with my faults than a boring goody goody (of course, on other occasions it was why can’t you be like X?) My father also intuitively understood things about me without me telling him. And there were other things which are too personal to be explained. They got some things wrong in my upbringing too of course.

Now to the second part of the quote (which I don’t agree with):

I’ve been told that we accept our trials in the pre-existence (PE). This means everything is a set up. Basically that girl – and you – agreed in PE to have that experience, but not to be sealed. You got dumped before you were born. Your wife on the other hand agreed PE that she’d marry you- “I feel like we’ve always known each other” etc. You agreed to have appaling acne, brown hair, bad eyesight and to be a good marathon runner and trombone player. And your grandfather died when you were twelve by mutual consent. Your neighbor became a quiz show star before being conceived. All of you asked to have a violent storm in 2005 in which your houses were damaged.

Oh and you and me and everyone else on this board met up PE too.

Mormon predestination…

This is heading into the realm of false doctrine… but I’ve heard these sentiments from many members.

It’s hard to have false doctrine where there is no true doctrine to compare it to.

But as for speculation… I don’t feel I “picked” my parents. I do feel I was “sent” to my family for a reason. Kind of like my earlier tl;dr post, I’ve imagined it like my mission call. I told HF I’d follow him and go to earth. He gave me my call. I kept my promise and came here. And here I am. I don’t see that as violating agency in any way since it was my choice to come here and I submitted willingly to come to earth the same as I submitted willingly to go to Texas and speak Spanish after 3 years of German, 3 Years of Japanese, and 2 Years of French.

But you know what? I taught a lesson in every one of those languages on my mission. Go figure.