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There was a double whammy today. Lesson 8 in Sunday School “the only true and living church” and “as man is god one was, as god is man may become.” Talk about trying the tolerance levels!
I tried to be considerate in my comments in both lessons, but couldn’t sit quite the whole time.
When the teacher told a story about finding the differences to other churches I responded with a comment about the benefit of finding common ground. It was good to be able to quote Jeffrey R Holland’s article from Aug 2012 Ensign when he said (quoting Joseph Smith):
Quote:
If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst; and they will do it before the millennium can be ushered in and Christ takes possession of His kingdom.
Then they read out D&C 20:25-26:
Quote:
25 That as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be saved—26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life,
I commented that although it was radical for some people in Joseph’s day, it was not to all and that Joseph Smith Snr, for example, was a universalist.
I then made the observation that we are broadly universalists in theology and that God’s plan was expansive and extended beyond the borders of mormonism. I said it’s quite obvious (especially to an expat unit in Asia) that over 99% of God’s children will go through life with no interaction with Christianity, let alone Mormonism, but God had still provided guidance for these people through the religious leaders and philosophers of their times and cultures. I mentioned that this was taught by president Kimball and the 1st presidency when they said:
Quote:
“The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.“The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel.
“Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all people sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come.
I recently started a thread for useful quotes in the support forum. I’ve found my contributions can be far more positive in class when I share perspectives that are a little different to norm, but based on scripture or GAs in the Ensign. It makes me sound so much less heretical. A few people even thanked me for my contribution afterwards. With that in mind, I’d love to have some additions to the “quote of the day” thread in ‘Support’ – especially ones that can be sourced to recent Ensigns.
As for “man may become” as God. I resisted the urge to quote the ‘dodgy doctrine’ when someone cited King Follett. There was some discussion about being a scientist and gaining knowledge to become like God. I observed that the God I know is kind, compassionate and loving. I quoted Paul said that I felt the most important qualification God will seek is our charity:
Quote:
1 Cor 13:1 THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
I mentioned that the parable of the goat and sheep in Matt 25 shows that God’s biggest question for all nation and the behaviour he will expect of those who become his associates is how we treated others.
I finished by pointing out that all nations had been taught this principle by their religious leaders through the ages and could be best summed up by Bill and Ted as:
“Be excellent to each other!”
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Great job.
I once gave a Sacrament Meeting talk as a High Counselor, with a member of the Stake Presidency in attendance, focused on charity that included that line from “Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure”. In that same talk, I said that the best measure of our charity is how we would treat people who came to church and were “breaking our group rules” in very obvious ways – the young woman in a mini-skirt covered in tattoos, the staggering, reeking drunk, the gay couple holding hands as the entered the chapel. I asked if each person there would shy away and say, “Get out of here; you’re ruining our worship,” or slide over, motion them to sit down next to him and say, “Thank God you found us!”
We had a reading from Lectures on Faith (applause) But I do like the Lorenzo Snow book better than last year.
I like your signature SamBee. Is that from this article: Quote:When we speak of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the only true church, we mean that it is the only organization authorized to administer the ordinances of salvation. We mean that it is the only organization led by Jesus Christ, through the earthly ministries of prophets and Apostles. Although the Church teaches the true doctrines of salvation, we do not mean that it is the only teacher of truth.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/i-have-a-question?lang=eng Can I get away with ignoring comma in the penultimate sentence? The only church lead by Jesus Christ through prophets and Apostles (but there are other churches lead by Christ through Popes, Arch-bishops, high lamas, etc). Either way, I’m glad the church has published a statement like this. This paragraph isn’t actually said by the First Presidency (their statement comes later in the article), it was by: “R. Lanier Britsch, vice-president for academics, Brigham Young University—Hawaii Campus” – but it still has a lot of merit. I also liked this:
Quote:Why, then, if [the Latter-day Saints] claim to have the only true church, is it so easy to see that other religious movements also have truth in them?”
Continuing, I wrote, “We should never be surprised to find truth anywhere. … The Light of Christ is in and upon all men, and all men who are honest have the right to enjoy the rewards of their goodness.”
I had to edit that quote down, merely so it would fit on the signature. I woud have preferred to quote it in full. mackay11 wrote:As for “man may become” as God. I resisted the urge to quote the ‘dodgy doctrine’ when someone cited King Follett.
I really dislike how the chapter quoted from Philippians 2:5-6
Quote:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
I understand this passage to be badly translated in the KJV and a better translation might have rendered it “Thought it robbery to be equal with God.”
Other versions give verse 6 as follows:
***Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;***
***who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,***
***Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,***
The context of these verses is clearly about emulating Christ’s
humility– not his ambition! Lorenzo Snow concluded from this mistranslated text:
Quote:“. . . This [is] what Paul taught, and he understood what he was talking about. He was caught up to the third heaven and heard things, he tells us, that were unlawful for man to utter [see 2 Corinthians 12:1–7]. . . . Would it be wrong for us to ask the people here to cultivate an
ambitionof this character? Emphasis on “ambition” mine.
I do not disagree with the idea of our divine potential. I do not fault Lorenzo in his day and age for using Philippians 2:6 as a support text. I do wish that this portion of the quote would have been omitted from this new manual. I feel like someone in the editing/correlation dept. should have felt dishonest for continuing to use the KJV in this way now that more information has been provided relevant to these verses. Cherry picking = bad!!! Cherry picking out of context to distort probable original meaning = very bad!!!
:thumbdown: Seriously though I really like this manual – I’ve read it cover to cover, and think Snow very underrated. Why do we only hear this couplet and the tithing story most of the time? The Smith book last year was disappointing.
I agree completely that Philippians 2: 5-6 focuses on humility and that the passage generally is mistranslated and misunderstood, Roy (even though I think both interpretations have merit)- but, again, dishonesty is not a good word to use in a situation where someone has multiple readings from which to choose and simply picks the one that fits their paradigm best. That is EXACTLY what we ask others to allow us to do– and when we do it we aren’t being dishonest. In fact, we are being fully honest – as are they. We and they simply are seeing things differently. If in doubt go to source, Phillipians 2:5-7 in Greek. Without even knowing Greek you can see the two source texts are substantially different in word order, grammar and even vocabulary. Five is a bit different, six identical but seven has an extra clause.
TEXTUS RECEPTUS, the Greek text used for KJV:
5 τοῦτο γὰρ φρονείσθω ἐν ὑμῖν ὃ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ 6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ 7 ἀλλ’ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος·
WESTCOTT-HORT, the Greek text used for most modern translations:
5 τοῦτο φρονεῖτε ἐν ὑμῖν ὁ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ 6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ, 7 ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος· καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος
Verse six analysis – some variant translations exist – my ownn additions in capitals:
Quote:
3739 [e] hos ὃς who,1722 [e] en ἐν in
3444 [e] morphē μορφῇ [the] form/SHAPE/LIKENESS
2316 [e] theou θεοῦ of God/OF A GOD
5225 [e] hyparchōn ὑπάρχων subsisting
3756 [e] ouch οὐχ not
725 [e] harpagmon ἁρπαγμὸν something to be grasped/GRABBED/?TAKEN
2233 [e] hēgēsato ἡγήσατο esteemed it /COUNT/THINK/CONSIDER
3588 [e] to τὸ – THE/IT
1510 [e] einai εἶναι to be
2470 [e] isa ἴσα equal
2316 [e] theō θεῷ with God/WITH A GOD
It seems that this verse is one of the most obscure in the New Testament, and the JW translation as usual controversial:
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/philippians2.6.htm Quote:Thought it not robbery is one translation of the key-word harpagmos which may be taken actively as in A[uthorised] V[ersion] or passively as in R[evised] V[ersion]: ‘counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God’. Both versions are linguistically possible. The real difficulty is encountered in the question:
Does it mean that Christ enjoyed equality with God but surrendered it by becoming man, or that He could have grasped at equality with God by self-assertion, but declined to do so and embraced rather the will of God in the circumstances of the incarnation and the cross?
Well – I for one stepped right into today. I wasn’t gunning to, but it came out. It was the ‘as man is” line. I let it run for awhile because it really is an idea I think is cool. Not the idea of replacing God or becoming exactly like him, but kind of the idea that someday I will be a grandparent, just like I had grandparents. It’s my simple mind. Anyway in my enthusiasm I mentioned the Pres. Hinckley Larry King Live comment. Then I scrambled up my words a bit. Well I set the teacher off. She was red in the face, pulpit pounding and pacing. Saying – she wasn’t afraid what others thought. This was the truth and she would stand by it. And on.
I knew that I’d thrown off her equilibrium, and I know that I sometimes bring up stuff that can cause struggle. I don’t mean to. I really try to keep my comments balanced. As the lesson wrapped up I began to debate if I should make an apology to the class and decided I would address the teacher personally. So I did – that’s when it really hit the fan. After I said, I sorry that I may have thrown her off, she began to cry, hugged me, told me how much she loves me, but that she always worries if she should call on me because I always cause tempest or torrent with my comments and create a whirlwind. With that she turned to talk to other people, including an investigator. Some one else cornered me to talk, but I noticed women leaving the room and glancing at me quickly then heading out.
As I drove home I thought about Winston Churchill. One of his most amazing qualities was his ability to never hold a grudge. He could have a huge fight with you, totally disagree with you – and then move right into working with you as if you were dedicated friends. He never let negative inter relationships get him down.
From here I go forward, aware now, that I leave an uncomfortable impression on fellow members. It is mine to choose how I respond from here or how I let it affect me. I have no decision at this point – except that I should buy a Sudoku book and keep it with me. When the lesson passes beyond my ability to discern my response, it’s time to solve some Sudoku.
I’m glad mackay and everyone else that your days went well. It was a humdinger one for topics.
Quote:As I drove home I thought about Winston Churchill. One of his most amazing qualities was his ability to never hold a grudge. He could have a huge fight with you, totally disagree with you – and then move right into working with you as if you were dedicated friends. He never let negative inter relationships get him down.
Churchill is not what you think. He took amphetamines and drank like a fish.
In 1926, he advocated machine gunning Scottish miners. He’d also suggested gassing tribes rebelling against the empire. His remarks about Jews and Irish leave something to be desired.
Quote:But we shouldn’t. His finest hours aside, Winston Churchill was hardly a paragon of progressive thought. He believed that women shouldn’t vote – telling the House of Commons that they are “well represented by their fathers, brothers, and husbands”. He was fiercely opposed to self-determination for the people of the Empire, advocating the use of poisoned gas against “uncivilized tribes” in Mesopotamia (Iraq) in 1919. In 1947, on the eve of Indian independence, he had to be tricked into a bar by two Conservative MPs so as not to embarrass himself during the debate. Even his distrust of Hitler was probably motivated mostly by a hatred of Germans – in 1927, he said that Mussolini’s fascism “had rendered service to the whole world”, while Il Duce himself was a “Roman genius”.
SamBee wrote:Quote:As I drove home I thought about Winston Churchill. One of his most amazing qualities was his ability to never hold a grudge. He could have a huge fight with you, totally disagree with you – and then move right into working with you as if you were dedicated friends. He never let negative inter relationships get him down.
Churchill is not what you think. He took amphetamines and drank like a fish.
In 1926, he advocated machine gunning Scottish miners. He’d also suggested gassing tribes rebelling against the empire. His remarks about Jews and Irish leave something to be desired.
Quote:But we shouldn’t. His finest hours aside, Winston Churchill was hardly a paragon of progressive thought. He believed that women shouldn’t vote – telling the House of Commons that they are “well represented by their fathers, brothers, and husbands”. He was fiercely opposed to self-determination for the people of the Empire, advocating the use of poisoned gas against “uncivilized tribes” in Mesopotamia (Iraq) in 1919. In 1947, on the eve of Indian independence, he had to be tricked into a bar by two Conservative MPs so as not to embarrass himself during the debate. Even his distrust of Hitler was probably motivated mostly by a hatred of Germans – in 1927, he said that Mussolini’s fascism “had rendered service to the whole world”, while Il Duce himself was a “Roman genius”.
I’m not a mod, so maybe it’s not my place, but given mom3 had had such a tough time at church I’d have thought tearing down the way she’d found some reassurance wasn’t in the spirit of the site.
I’m aware that, from previous threads, you’ve some British negativity and I appreciate Churchill and many other English politicians aren’t saints. Most leaders have their dark side. I just don’t think it’s the time & place.
I wasn’t trying to tear her down, just pointing out what Churchill was really like, i.e. a imperialist reactionary. who just happened to be the right man in WWII and pretty objectionable out of it. Nothing personal Mom3. FWIW Gandhi and Steve Jobs are two other folk who are held up as infallible heroes, and I’ve criticized them. And neither of them are English.
Some of the greatest Englishmen have been ignored in their own country… why is it that English media spends more time on the Tudor butchers than Tom Paine or Wilberforce, or Maggie Thatcher instead of Pankhurst? It seems we can have open season on Brigham Young but not certain other historical figures.
As for Englishness, I’ve no issue with that, it’s Britishness I object to. Like I’ve said before.
mom3 wrote:Well – I for one stepped right into today. I wasn’t gunning to, but it came out. It was the ‘as man is” line. I let it run for awhile because it really is an idea I think is cool. Not the idea of replacing God or becoming exactly like him, but kind of the idea that someday I will be a grandparent, just like I had grandparents. It’s my simple mind.
Anyway in my enthusiasm I mentioned the Pres. Hinckley Larry King Live comment. Then I scrambled up my words a bit. Well I set the teacher off. She was red in the face, pulpit pounding and pacing. Saying – she wasn’t afraid what others thought. This was the truth and she would stand by it. And on.
I knew that I’d thrown off her equilibrium, and I know that I sometimes bring up stuff that can cause struggle. I don’t mean to. I really try to keep my comments balanced. As the lesson wrapped up I began to debate if I should make an apology to the class and decided I would address the teacher personally. So I did – that’s when it really hit the fan. After I said, I sorry that I may have thrown her off, she began to cry, hugged me, told me how much she loves me, but that she always worries if she should call on me because I always cause tempest or torrent with my comments and create a whirlwind. With that she turned to talk to other people, including an investigator. Some one else cornered me to talk, but I noticed women leaving the room and glancing at me quickly then heading out.
As I drove home I thought about Winston Churchill. One of his most amazing qualities was his ability to never hold a grudge. He could have a huge fight with you, totally disagree with you – and then move right into working with you as if you were dedicated friends. He never let negative inter relationships get him down.
From here I go forward, aware now, that I leave an uncomfortable impression on fellow members. It is mine to choose how I respond from here or how I let it affect me. I have no decision at this point – except that I should buy a Sudoku book and keep it with me. When the lesson passes beyond my ability to discern my response, it’s time to solve some Sudoku.
I’m glad mackay and everyone else that your days went well. It was a humdinger one for topics.
So sorry you had a rough Sunday. I’ve had them too. One of the reasons I started the ‘quote of the day’ thread was I was trying to gather as many quotes as possible into one place.
As I mentioned in the OP, I’ve found that by being able to quote from an Ensign and have the exact wording on my phone, people seem less defensive. Especially if I try to make the point in a constructive manner.
The reactions of the teacher and the sideways-glancers is a shame. It reminds me how insecure some people are. The moment they feel their little bubble is under threat the often either go on the offensive or defensive.
It makes me grateful for having had the opportunity to broaden my mind a little while holding on to the things that matter.
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