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Hello; Like an increasing number of members, I have major problems with D&C 132, which addresses polygamy and the ambiguous “new & everlasting covenant”. This section in the doctrine and covenants supports polygamy in my eyes and refers many times to this “new & everlasting covenant”. I have heard more than one member tell me that this covenant means polygamy. Therefore, if we follow the words in D&C 132, to enter into the celestial kingdom we must enter into a polygamous marriage, most likely in the next life as polygamy is frowned upon in this society (thank goodness).
So what I am trying to get at here is …
1) What is your interpretation or understanding of the “new & everlasting covenant” spoken of in this section of D&C? Is it polygamous marriage?
2) Is polygamy required to enter into the celestial kingdom, like temple marriage is?
3) Do we as members have any modern revelation that there will for certain be polygamy (required or not) in heaven?
I have tried to do my own research on these questions and I have turned up almost nothing. I have also consulted my YW’s leaders and they have told me that yes, there will by polygamous marriage in eternity. They seem very content with this, but the idea of polygamous marriage is repulsive to me, and I absolute am sickened by the thought of being forced into a polygamous marriage for eternity. My mother and I joke around saying that if there is polygamy in the celestial kingdom, we aint goin! (: I dont know if I have received misinformation on this or if I am over-reacting to this whole situation, but frankly I have a lot of worries about this.
Any information and / or insight would be GREATLY appreciated.
blue_birdHa, you and I went through the same thing as laurels! I think they are going to have to quit teaching the D&C year in seminary or else offer free lobotomies beforehand. That was an early hallmark of my own faith crisis, and like you, I raised the concern that I couldn’t accept this idea, and I was assured by a well-meaning female seminary teacher that I had no choice and it was going to happen in the eternities whether I liked it or not. Now I’m nearly 30 years older, and I am going to tell you what I wish that seminary teacher had said: I don’t buy it. I have received the gift of the holy ghost just like everyone else when I was confirmed, and when I read section 132, I don’t believe it is all from god. I believe it is partly JS trying to convince Emma to accept something that is fundamentally not right. Mine is a minority opinion at church, granted. But I simply don’t believe it’s from god, and at least as I experience the spirit, the confirmation I get agrees that it’s not. I love the idea of eternal families. I love the idea of seeing our marriage as something that can transcend the petty realities of daily life, and the perspective that imagining the eternities brings. But polygamy has the opposite effect. It fosters less intimacy and mutual respect because wives are commoditized and not equal.
You are going to hear lots of sexist stuff in the church. The church contains the gospel, but it also contains a bunch of crap brought in by humans. We have to figure out how to sort this out and embrace what is good and let go of what is not. That’s my view anyway. I feel sorry for those women who believe they will share their husbands in the eternities.
Don’t do what I did at your age. I became depressed and felt there was no place for me in the church. There is! You just have to make your own way and not care about what others think of you because the approval of other church members is not worth the cost to your authenticity.
Get used to me linking to previous posts about the same topics, since I think it good to know what has been said in the past here: “D&C 132 Why?”( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4048 “Joseph Smith and Sexual Polyandry”( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3942 There are a lot more, but these two are the most recent ones.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
I think they are going to have to quit teaching the D&C year in seminary or else offer free lobotomies beforehand. That was an early hallmark of my own faith crisis, and like you, I raised the concern that I couldn’t accept this idea, and I was assured by a well-meaning female seminary teacher that I had no choice and it was going to happen in the eternities whether I liked it or not. Now I’m nearly 30 years older, and I am going to tell you what I wish that seminary teacher had said: I don’t buy it.Amen.
hawkgrrrl wrote:You just have to make your own way and not care about what others think of you because the approval of other church members is not worth the cost to your authenticity.
Love this!Blue_bird…pay attention to hawkgrrrls stuff..she is our closet guru Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Here is my take FWIW: blue_bird wrote:
1) What is your interpretation or understanding of the “new & everlasting covenant” spoken of in this section of D&C? Is it polygamous marriage?2) Is polygamy required to enter into the celestial kingdom, like temple marriage is?
3) Do we as members have any modern revelation that there will for certain be polygamy (required or not) in heaven?
1) D&C 132 was written in full support of polygamy, no question about that. Parts have been re-interpreted to mean temple marriage instead of polygamous marriage, I think that is a positive move for the modern church.
2) If you had a time machine and could ask the saints 150 years ago they would say yes, that was their understanding back then. Today the understanding is different, it is not taught as required. The good news is we live today and can go with what is taught today, it is a much better message. Personally, I don’t see the temple sealing as a requirement as much as I see it as symbolic of the true requirement – a love that is deep enough to be eternally binding. I tend to see church teachings as largely symbolic with important divine meaning but clouded by a lot of human imperfection and limited understanding. This could very well be due to my own limitations, so I claim and grant the 11th article of faith to all. I also heavily lean on the 13th article of faith.
3) I as well as others have our own modern revelation about polygamy in the eternities. I suggest you seek out your own as well.
I do not believe in polygamy and it has always bothered me. Even at the times I was the strongest in my testimony. My friend recently shared this link with me. It doesn’t make it all better, but the changes/additionals to our scriptures are definitely getting a little better IMO. One little bit at a time… I will accept being a heretic and an apostate and spending eternity in the terrestrial kingdom, before I accept dc 132 as inspired by god and a commandment. It doesn’t work for me at any level…the way it was taught and practiced by JS and especially BY.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
hawkgrrrl wrote:Ha, you and I went through the same thing as laurels! I think they are going to have to quit teaching the D&C year in seminary or else offer free lobotomies beforehand. That was an early hallmark of my own faith crisis, and like you, I raised the concern that I couldn’t accept this idea, and I was assured by a well-meaning female seminary teacher that I had no choice and it was going to happen in the eternities whether I liked it or not.
The church contains the gospel, but it also contains a bunch of crap brought in by humans. We have to figure out how to sort this out and embrace what is good and let go of what is not.
Don’t do what I did at your age. I became depressed and felt there was no place for me in the church. There is! You just have to make your own way and not care about what others think of you because the approval of other church members is not worth the cost to your authenticity.
I’m so glad that I am not the only one freaked out by the polygamy idea. I really appreciate your insight; much of what you said is exactly how I feel. I feel as if there is no place for me in the church; no room for “middle ground” & moderation. It’s either all or nothing. Thank you very, very much for shedding some light on this issue.
cwald wrote:I will accept being a heretic and an apostate and spending eternity in the terrestrial kingdom, before I accept dc 132 as inspired by god and a commandment.
It doesn’t work for me at any level…the way it was taught and practiced by JS and especially BY.
I totally agree. Good to know I’m not the only one who feels this way!
Orson wrote:
3) I as well as others have our own modern revelation about polygamy in the eternities. I suggest you seek out your own as well.I will seek out my own revelation, thank you. (:
Old-Timer wrote:Get used to me linking to previous posts about the same topics, since I think it good to know what has been said in the past here:
Thank you!
Orson wrote:. Personally, I don’t see the temple sealing as a requirement as much as I see it as symbolic of the true requirement – a love that is deep enough to be eternally binding.
THanks for this. The “requirement” and then the true requirement.
Maybe the next time a YW leader, or any local leader, says polygamy is a requirement for the Celestial Kingdom, ask her to show you where it says that in any current manual. (I hope she won’t find support in a manual.) This is entirely speculation. but this is what I think of polygamy. I think sealing is an eternal principle that got “lost in translation” to Joseph Smith. What developed as doctrine mat not be what God actually intended. I think Joseph was interested in restoring things present in the Bible, saw polygamy as a part of that, with the old patriarchs, and allowed his personal desires to mix things up.
I think God intends us to all be “sealed up” to him, as one human family united in love. I see this as something separate from the marital relationship. I think eternal marriages are bound by the deep love and charity that develops between partners, that makes us one. Then nothing can part us. I see sealing as an ordinance that binds us to God and each other. So it’s necessary as a way to covenant as God’s people and be unified in a “New and Everlasting Covenant” as a Zion Society.
I think sealing is just a way to enter that “great chain,” and our mortal marriages are the easiest way we can make sense of it. I think we will be able to spend our time and share our love with those we wish to in the eternities, and will not be forced to be with someone we don’t love (in cases of bad marriages), or to share spouses (in case of polygamy). The sealing is necessary to eternal life. But it’s not sufficient to bind us unless there is also love, desire, and free will, without compulsion. The whole “war in heaven” theology tells me agency is important to God. We will not be forced into polygamy. I don’t believe polygamy is necessary for salvation. And I don’t buy that it was required by God. How many people one is sealed to are irrelevant to me then, since I separate the sealing ordinance from the actual choice we will make about whom to spend our time with and love for all eternity.
That said, I suspect God may “allow it” in some situations. I think of people I know and love who have been widowed, them re-married. They may never wish to live in polygamy during mortality, and most likely would not be happy sharing a spouse with another person at the same time. And yet the widow or widower may honestly and genuinely love BOTH spouses tremendously. They may have a different love for their first and second spouse, but still love them equally. Whom would they choose in the eternities? Choosing one or the other may feel like hell instead of heaven. And that is true for women AND men. I have honestly seen here in mortality, families where after a divorce the 1st and 2nd wife are actually great friends, bond over their shared history, love and serve one another, and help each other raise the kids/step-kids. I know this is very rare. But I’ve seen it happen. And I think such people may prefer to be part of the family they knew in mortality, even if it is messy. I suspect there are some polygamous families who feel similarly. I don’t think God would forbid that, for those who make that choice.
So no, I don’t think polygamy is inspired or required. I think the main idea is to learn to love another person deeply, sacrifice, change, and grow together. I think our preferences matter more than our sealings as to WHO, as long as we are part of that great chain bound to our father and to humanity. God wants us to be happy. Heaven is heaven for a reason. What each person’s idea of heaven looks like may be individual, but I know God will not use force.
Then of course, God loves everyone with the deepest love that exists. Yet his loving me entirely and fully does not take away from his ability to love everyone else the same way. So maybe eternal love is different than mortal love anyway, and it will be a moot point.
Just my LONG thoughts and speculations.
Thankful wrote:I think God intends us to all be “sealed up” to him, as one human family united in love. I see this as something separate from the marital relationship. I think eternal marriages are bound by the deep love and charity that develops between partners, that makes us one. Then nothing can part us. I see sealing as an ordinance that binds us to God and each other. So it’s necessary as a way to covenant as God’s people and be unified in a “New and Everlasting Covenant” as a Zion Society. I think sealing is just a way to enter that “great chain,” and our mortal marriages are the easiest way we can make sense of it.
Thank you, Thankful. I am thankful for your great thoughts.
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