Am I crazy for wanting to join the Church?

Welcome. Fascinating story. Thanks for sharing it with us.

I am rushed right now, but I think it’s safe to say you’ve found the right place for your questions.

Thanks Roy….

I think those benefits ARE “true”, even if the doctrine and history aren’t. That’s why I keep going back, I think.

The thing that worries me is how to best fit in when the ward is (apparently) mostly TBM (not meant derogatorily) and I’m a non-literalist Mormonstories and Mormon matters podcast kind of guy.

Do you know where I can get a copy of the article that was on here at one point called “What is a testimony anyway” or something like that? The whole “testimony” question has been driving me up the wall, and continues to do so every month at F&T Meeting. The words “I KNOW” make me wonder what I can actually testify to, other than “I KNOW that the Church is GOOD”. It produces good people, and therefore, the root is good, even if “untrue” in the classic “propositional truth” sense…

I remember an article that was something to the effect of “What is church doctrine anyway?” Is that the one you are looking for?

I think those benefits ARE “true”, even if the doctrine and history aren’t. That’s why I keep going back, I think.

The words “I KNOW” make me wonder what I can actually testify to, other than “I KNOW that the Church is GOOD”. It produces good people, and therefore, the root is good, even if “untrue” in the classic “propositional truth” sense…

These sentences make me think of the following excerpt from Elder Holland’s recent conference address:

Furthermore, you have more faith than you think you do because of what the Book of Mormon calls “the greatness of the evidences.” “Ye shall know them by their fruits,” Jesus said, and the fruit of living the gospel is evident in the lives of Latter-day Saints everywhere. As Peter and John said once to an ancient audience, I say today, “We cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard,” and what we have seen and heard is that “a notable miracle hath been done” in the lives of millions of members of this Church. That cannot be denied.

I find it interesting that an Apostle that “cannot but speak the things which [he has] seen and heard” would reference the same things that you do – namely that peoples’ lives are generally benefitted from participation in the church.

The same address states, “And remember, in this world, everyone is to walk by faith.” (Italics in original!!!)

I guess my point is that everyone is in the same boat of uncertainty and hope – In my experience, some of us may cope with that by clinging to the certainty of “I know.” I too, have my own coping mechanisms that are attuned to my unique situation. But in the overall analysis we are more same than we are different. Should we not band together in fellowship with what we have in common rather than stay apart and separate over our differences?

I actually really like your attitude. Some of us who are currently members can have a hard time seeing the good in the church at times, but it seems you can separate the supposed need for an absolute answer of truth from the benefits of what membership in the church can provide. If you think joining the church will make you happier, than I think you should. If the church isn’t really true, then it doesn’t matter if you don’t have a testimony of it. If it really is true, then it will be good you are a member, since it will help lead you along a good path. Win-win right?

Thanks for the vote of confidence, journeygirl! I hope I don’t become myopic over the long term and forget the good by starting to focus on the flaws. The fear of doing that is kind of what made me ask the question about being crazy to join in the first place. I want to stay “long term” and I’m a little afraid of being able to do that with an abundance of “literalists”.

I DO, however, think that associating with the good people in the Church (which DO seem to outnumber the “bad”) will help me grow as a person and allow me to have the community I seek, so in the end, it does seem like a worthwhile adventure

We have an older woman in our ward who was a ordained pastor in a different church for 40 years. I don’t think she believe all we teach (but who really believes in it all) but she has found being with the LDS people has given her something she was missing from her old church and she comes every week. I don’t have a testimony like I use to but I enjoy and appreciate what the church has to offer and the service it allows me to give. I think if you go in realizing up front that you are joining a flawed church with flawed members and leaders then it will be easier then if you joined thinking all is perfect and then being disappointed when finding out that it is not. It sounds like you it might be just what you need for now and now is all we really have.

Don’t take this as a suggestion, just a thought, but in your case, you might give some consideration to being a little more up-front about wanting to join the congregation as a seeker of good and of God, but that you have more hope than belief… again, just so you don’t come across as a faith-promoting conversion story.

I remember visiting my parents’ ward where I grew up. An old friend was recently married to a young woman that was from a country in the old soviet bloc. She had been baptized and was asked to tell her conversion story in sacrament meeting. She described it as somewhat of an ultimatum. My friend loved her but would only marry her if she converted. Although the primary motivation was love, this would also be a path to citizenship and she could stay in the US. She called her mom (back in the home country) for advice and her mom told her to go ahead – that one church is largely as good as another.

I was thoroughly amused by her candor and wondered if the bishopric knew what they were getting into when they asked her to share her conversion story.

Thanks Roy, for the references in this post and the other one to Elder Holland. Any idea where I can find them? Especially the interview with PBS…

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/holland.html#1

I am an atheist, and I continue to go to Church, and I feel like I’ve gotten past the mental gymnastics that come with being a non-believer attending church. But in your case, you need to watch out that you don’t inadvertently become a minor celebrity and proof that the Church is true because of the fact that you are a former minister/clergy.

On Own Now: Thanks for sharing this. I really appreciate it. How did you get past the mental gymnastics? And I already AM (unfortunately) a minor celebrity. People have continued to ask “when are you finally going to get baptized” so much that the Bishop had to tell the ward council, “He’s former clergy…it requires the permission of the FP”. Tell the ward council, tell the ward.

My most uncomfortable times at church are not about the BofM, or about belief conflicts, but about not wanting to be hypocritical. Don’t take this as a suggestion, just a thought, but in your case, you might give some consideration to being a little more up-front about wanting to join the congregation as a seeker of good and of God, but that you have more hope than belief… again, just so you don’t come across as a faith-promoting conversion story.

I have a problem with the “hypocritical” thing too, but I’m not sure I believe there is a god out there to judge me for it in the ultimate sense, so I tend to ignore those feelings and just try to enjoy the people and the good things my association brings with the Church. As for being upfront about joining as a seeker….I think the baptism interview prevents that doesn’t it? I mean, it flat out asks “do you believe….” and has to be answered with a “yes” or “no”. At least that’s the feeling I get from the missionaries, who of course are literalists when it comes to just about everything….

So, I’m careful not to categorize people based on levels of agreement with my own beliefs. To me, the bad people are something else entirely. So, when I hear things that others believe that I don’t, I don’t get too worked up. I think part of being a reluctant member of the Church is that I’m a little more open to competing beliefs, and that has to include not only beliefs outside, but also inside the Church.

So far, I haven’t encountered any “bad” people at all. I hope my comment about TBM’s wasn’t interpreted as labeling them as bad people. In fact, most of my ward are TBM’s, I think. For me, TBM stands for True Blue Mormon, and describes one who believes everything literally. Literal belief certainly isn’t bad — it’s just not sustainable over the long haul because of the well-known problems with Church history, IMO. In fact, I sometimes ENVY those people, because in my experience, you can only be “true blue” anything until you’ve had a crisis of faith. I envy those who haven’t had such an experience. I would consider them “lucky”…never “bad”