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Read a great post over on thingsofmysoul
Quote:The difficulty is that we tend to be harder on our own than we are on those we don’t know. The standard is the same, but we tend to think those who have been in the Church have had their chance while those outside the Church haven’t.
I’ve definitely become more of a universalist of late, believing that the whole “one path to God” is only true in the sense that it happens through Christ, not necessarily Mormonism. I know many of you feel the same or similar. But how much better would life in the church be if we stopped holding each other to a higher standard than those outside the church? To believe that one has “had their chance” just because they’re born into the church (or even converted at one point) is somewhat narrow minded and certainly belittling of God’s mercy. No one know the trials that others pass through or the understanding they gain in this life. We all have different experience that place us in no way on an equal plain for judgement.Most members would judge members of this forum as apostates, wolves in sheep clothing, or in some way weak of faith. Yet I see those of this board as people of great faith. I have a tremendous respect for those of you on here who choose the (IMO) more difficult road of persevering through the trial of your faith. I believe this forum to be full of rough stones being slowly turned into pearls.
We are all here on earth to gain experience. We’re doing that. Thanks Ray for a great post reminding me to be more loving and less judgmental of others, even in the same faith tradition!
:thumbup: Thanks Ray and Eman – Both the post and after thought were wise. The post is a lovely sentiment and I agree on a number of points. We do tend to be harder on our loved ones than strangers in most things including their potential for salvation. LDS are inclusive and universalist with our temple work providing saving ordinances to all. But I disagree that Mormon theology supports eternal progression for everyone to eventually make it to the celestial kingdom. The available scriptures lean more to there not being progression between kingdoms so that saving ordinances are only helpful in terms of how you progressed here on earth along with what you accept while awaiting resurrection. There is a FAIR article the supports what I have always been taught about the subject. http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/Progression_between_kingdoms It does state that the church takes no stand either way and it certainly could be part of “things yet to be revealed.” I hope so as the concept of eternal progression for all (or almost all) meshes with what I feel is right in my heart.
TBMs are hard on their loved ones because they believe that the purpose of this life is to strive for celestial glory and when their loved ones are falling short, it is heart breaking as family structure is not the same in the lower kingdoms. They spend exhaustive amounts of time, energy and prayer hoping that their loved one will get back on the path before it is too late (reference Alma 34:32-35). They feel that they will lose their loved one as well as possibly future generations. Most people who question or leave Mormonism are reluctant to tell family members because of the anguish they know they will cause. And as it is right now, I feel that mormon theology better supports the sentiments of the TBM than not. I think it’s possible that many people, like me, feel that brick walls between kingdoms make no sense and want doctrine to match up with what this more charitable view, but right now I don’t think that doctrine is really there.
Quote:I disagree that Mormon theology supports eternal progression for everyone to eventually make it to the celestial kingdom.
That’s not what the post says, Martha. It says everyone has a chance, not that everyone will make it. Our theology is very liberal, and it’s universal it opening the possibility to everyone.
I happen to believe that FAR more will make it than most members believe, but I don’t believe everyone will.
Not only am I a universalist… I’m an individualist universalist. Individually adapted universal salvation. I like the idea of eternal progress and even between kingdoms. If there isn’t, then I don’t think it will be because God stops/blocks us but because we’re comfortable not doing so.
I didn’t mean to imply that you were saying everyone will make it. Of course everyone has a chance. The vicarious work will be done for all. The gospel will be preached to all. What I am questioning is what doctrine says about when that chance is past. At death? At the time of resurrection? After eons in your assigned kingdom. In the D&C it says the telestial kingdom’s numbers will be as numerous as the sands of the shore and they will no longer dwell with God or Christ. If there’s no progress between kingdoms, what is the point?
If I make to the celestial kingdom without my loved ones, then that is no heaven. Or worse, I make to a lower kingdom with my loved ones, but there is no family structure there. I can only have my family together forever if I and all my family members make it. Believing members don’t hold their family members to a higher standard, they just care more; there is more deep emotional investment. It is wrong to think that just because a family member was given the Gospel at one time, they will be judged more harshly and members do that sometimes. And if that is your main point, I very much agree.
I think that I am just moving past all this in my thinking to a much more universal and inclusive system where there are no kingdom divisions and there are no constructed ordinances that must be done by the living for the dead. One where we don’t have to believe in Christ in order to be saved, but rather one where his grace is sufficient regardless of what our beliefs were on earth, be it Christian, Buddhist, etc. etc.
Mormonism is one of the most expansive religions today, but it isn’t expansive enough.
Martha wrote:I didn’t mean to imply that you were saying everyone will make it. Of course everyone has a chance. The vicarious work will be done for all. The gospel will be preached to all. What I am questioning is what doctrine says about when that chance is past. At death? At the time of resurrection? After eons in your assigned kingdom.
In the D&C it says the telestial kingdom’s numbers will be as numerous as the sands of the shore and they will no longer dwell with God or Christ. If there’s no progress between kingdoms, what is the point?
If I make to the celestial kingdom without my loved ones, then that is no heaven. Or worse, I make to a lower kingdom with my loved ones, but there is no family structure there. I can only have my family together forever if I and all my family members make it. Believing members don’t hold their family members to a higher standard, they just care more; there is more deep emotional investment. It is wrong to think that just because a family member was given the Gospel at one time, they will be judged more harshly and members do that sometimes. And if that is your main point, I very much agree.
I think that I am just moving past all this in my thinking to a much more universal and inclusive system where there are no kingdom divisions and there are no constructed ordinances that must be done by the living for the dead. One where we don’t have to believe in Christ in order to be saved, but rather one where his grace is sufficient regardless of what our beliefs were on earth, be it Christian, Buddhist, etc. etc.
Mormonism is one of the most expansive religions today, but it isn’t expansive enough.
I’ve been thinking about this since the thread started. If I were given the option of celestial kingdom but family wouldn’t qualify or Terrestrial and we’d be spiritual siblings but in the same kingdom… In my current perspective and understanding of things… I’d have to go with the second option.
I’ll try to live as if celestial kingdom is a real goal and opportunity and not only a concept. But if push came to shove… Heaven isn’t heaven if my family isn’t with me.
I take the kingdom construct figuratively as descriptions of the process of growth, so I absolutely believe in progression from kingdom to kingdom until each person reaches his or her own limit. I believe the final judgment happens only when that point is reached – and I think it happens LONG after we tend to believe. I take the classic percentage breakdowns within the kingdoms to describe people in this life – and I think the general outlines in the D&C fit that time frame pretty well. I believe God is WAY more charitable and powerful than we often envision – and I think he has eternity (“all eternity”) to do what he wants to do. After all, “time is measured only unto man” (or however that quote is worded). Thus, I think we talk in terms that will motivate us here and now, but I think we see through a glass, darkly, when it comes to there and then.
Our theology is universalist in nature; our doctrine can’t be as universalist if it is to motivate many people to act now. (opposition in all things means ALL things, even our theology and our doctrine) I get that tension, and I’m OK with it – even as I wish we could strike a balance that would work better for me and lots of others I know.
As to life without my loved ones, one of my favorite scenes from any movie is near the end of “What Dreams May Come” – where the husband thanks his wife for being the person he would rather be with forever in Hell than without in Heaven. It’s a powerful message, and it’s how I feel about my own wife – and children.
I can’t imagine God feels differently, and I can’t imagine he lacks the ability to make it all work out in the end. After all, charity is defined as the pure love of God – and it includes “long-suffering”. I think we simply can’t fathom what that term really means.
I like that Ray. And agree. The problem is, is what you are saying, and the other people in this thread are saying, is not what is taught at church and from the podium at General conference.
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Old-Timer wrote:As to life without my loved ones, one of my favorite scenes from any movie is near the end of “What Dreams May Come” – where the husband thanks his wife for being the person he would rather be with forever in Hell than without in Heaven. It’s a powerful message, and it’s how I feel about my own wife – and children.
I can’t imagine God feels differently, and I can’t imagine he lacks the ability to make it all work out in the end. After all, charity is defined as the pure love of God – and it includes “long-suffering”. I think we simply can’t fathom what that term really means.
Loved that movie. I’ll have to watch it again.
I agree that we cannot really fathom the idea of long-suffering and ultimately Gods pure love and I believe or at least hope it will all work out in the end. I do trust in Him.
My whole FC started with a prayer for truth. It’s my one true desire. What I worry about is that I will create a belief system for myself that is beautiful and comfortable to me, but is not really truth. We do see through a glass, darkly. I just hope I can decipher at least some real truth amidst all the opinions and confusion.
cwald wrote:I like that Ray. And agree.
The problem is, is what you are saying, and the other people in this thread are saying, is not what is taught at church and from the podium at General conference.
Exactly. I agree with what Ray is saying too. I just question how much it really meshes with Mormon doctrine. I haven’t yet thrown out the baby or the bath water. I don’t want to walk away from truth and I don’t want to continue to embrace comfortable falsehoods. It’s important to try and figure out what the real doctrine is. But there are often multiple interpretations of doctrine clouded by the interpreters personal beliefs. Pure doctrine is very difficult.
Quote:The problem is, is what you are saying, and the other people in this thread are saying, is not what is taught at church and from the podium at General conference.
I know – and I don’t care.
What is preached (the current doctrine) works for the majority of the membership, so I’m not going to lobby for it to be changed.Let them hear what they need to hear; I can believe what I need to believe. On top of that, I have explicit permission now, after General Conference, to disagree and still have a place in the Church, and I’m fine with that. I’d be fine without it, but it does help to have it said so directly.
mackay11 wrote:I like the idea of eternal progress and even between kingdoms. If there isn’t, then I don’t think it will be because God stops/blocks us but because we’re comfortable not doing so.
Yes, in my view God could not be God while ending the progression of any of his children. If earth is the perfect model – where as parents become more like God the more they will support all of their children to reach for higher and higher levels of being – then it is incomprehensible that God in eternity would say “nope, that was your chance; you blew it now you’re stuck in a state of wanting for eons beyond eons and eternities beyond infinity.” If God is a source of hell then He could say “your progression ends here”, but if He is the ultimate model of love and wisdom then He hopes for nothing more than the eternal progression of all his children. Only agency could stand in the way of that fruition. I don’t think we have even scratched the surface of beginning to understand the true model of eternity.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:The problem is, is what you are saying, and the other people in this thread are saying, is not what is taught at church and from the podium at General conference.
I know – and I don’t care.
What is preached (the current doctrine) works for the majority of the membership, so I’m not going to lobby for it to be changed.Let them hear what they need to hear; I can believe what I need to believe. On top of that, I have explicit permission now, after General Conference, to disagree and still have a place in the Church, and I’m fine with that. I’d be fine without it, but it does help to have it said so directly.
That is beautiful. I just pray to God you don’t have to give up your family to live it and believe it, like so many of us had to.
I only hope my sacrifice will make a difference, so others, including my kids, will not have to experience the pain of Mormonism like I have.
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Quote:I only hope my sacrifice will make a difference, so others, including my kids, will not have to experience the pain of Mormonism like I have.
A-freaking-men.
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