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I have a question, the same question that has been asked millions of times I’m sure, but it’s causing me alot of distress lately and I’d love to hear some other opinions. How is it explained when good, faithful latter day saints, and christians in general just lose, and lose, and have bad luck, and just struggle constantly…while people that don’t care about god, don’t worship, don’t pay tithing, etc have good solid lives, have fun, make great money, etc….That’s something that makes it very difficult for me sometimes to wrap my head around. I know people that pay tithing, go to church every week, keep the commandments and do everything they are supposed to do, and do happily and just can’t seem to catch a break. I’ve known many many non religious people that are the exact opposite and they do great. How does that make any sense ? That might be the one thing that causes me the most doubt in my faith. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.
I think of God as a parent practicing benign neglect. Whatever happens here on earth is a byproduct of the tapestry of human actions – and humans can do whatever they choose. Crap happens. We’re here to see how we’ll deal with it. I don’t believe in the idea that obedience = no adversity. Life experience dictates otherwise.
As Hawk said I also see earth life as a time to mostly make our own way and learn to deal with things as they come. I don’t see prayer and spiritual strength as a way to prevent or shorten trials, but I do see spirituality as a help to strengthen us so we can get through the hard times. Bds4206 wrote:I know people that pay tithing, go to church every week, keep the commandments and do everything they are supposed to do, and do happily and just can’t seem to catch a break. I’ve known many many non religious people that are the exact opposite and they do great. How does that make any sense ?
Yes, I know those people as well. I have grown into the idea that (book of Orson here) spiritual blessings are the result of spiritual efforts, and physical fruits can be the result of physical efforts. Spiritual blessings lie along the lines of peace, faith, emotional strength, etc. They don’t circumvent trials, they help us get through them.
On the other hand physical fruits can be obvious, but personally I think in our culture the signals have gotten crossed and people have attributed physical fruits to spiritual efforts in error. I believe D&C 30:20-21, that blessings are tied to laws; but in my opinion economic fruits are tied to economic laws, spiritual benefits are tied to spiritual practices, etc. That is why even an “unbeliever” that obeys the economic laws are rewarded in kind.
Bds4206 wrote:I have a question, the same question that has been asked millions of times I’m sure, but it’s causing me alot of distress lately and I’d love to hear some other opinions…How is it explained when good, faithful latter day saints, and christians in general just lose, and lose, and have bad luck, and just struggle constantly…while
people that don’t care about god, don’t worship, don’t pay tithing, etc have good solid lives, have fun, make great money, etc….That’s something that makes it very difficult for me sometimes to wrap my head around. I know people that pay tithing, go to church every week, keep the commandments and do everything they are supposed to do, and do happily and just can’t seem to catch a break.I’ve known many many non religious people that are the exact opposite and they do great. How does that make any sense ? That might be the one thing that causes me the most doubt in my faith. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. Regardless of the reason why it is this way, to me it looks like some things happen mostly by chance and people especially have a significant amount of freedom to make decisions that negatively impact each other so many things that happen are difficult or impossible to predict ahead of time. One thing I definitely believe in as much as anything is pure luck (good and bad) where sometimes there really is no sensible reason behind it as far as we can tell. The following scripture passages describe the way random events actually occur in real life sometimes contrary to the way we expect and for no apparent reason.
Ecclesiastes 9:11-12 wrote:I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all…For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
As far as why God would allow so much suffering (the problem of evil) I see a few possibilities that make sense to me. Maybe God is not all-knowing and all-powerful to begin with but is actually working within certain constraints or limitations similar to us. Maybe God defines what is best differently and based on a much larger and long-term perspective than we do and didn’t want everything to be easy and obvious but intended for life to involve some struggle and confusion from the beginning. If God had created a scripted and pre-determined puppet show where everyone was programmed to be happy but they were just going through the motions and not facing any real challenges or decisions then to me that kind of life would not be nearly as meaningful as what we have now. In any case, I’m not going to count on divine intervention and I would rather just assume that God wanted us to work many things out on our own.
Orson wrote:On the other hand physical fruits can be obvious, but personally I think in our culture the signals have gotten crossed and people have attributed physical fruits to spiritual efforts in error.
This was
thebig false assumption that caused my faith crisis. Yes, I knew that bad things happen to good people. I just felt that being a member of the true church, and paying an honest tithe, and wearing the temple garment properly, and honoring my priesthood would A) mitigate the bad that must happen and 
would outright prevent bad that was preventable. I felt that I had heard a million stories with just that theme. Wasn’t the whole message of the BOM that righteous people will prosper in the land? What is the quantifiable benefit of doing these things?My introduction had this same title: When bad things happen to good people –
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1937 I also have belatedly come to the worldview where God doesn’t or can’t intervene in daily life. This does cause me to disbelieve many divine intervention stories. When I hear people saying that fortuitous coincidences where put in motion by God for their personal benefit, then I tell myself that their interpretation helps them to be happy and see the world as a comfortable and safe place. I am genuinely happy for them in their interpretation; it just doesn’t work for me.
The one exception in my worldview of the “divine non-interference clause” is to send a general sense of peace and wellbeing. I want to believe that God sends these “love taps” to remind us that he cares – so I do.
Crap happens in a world directed by human agency – and the rain falls on the just as well as the unjust. I believe in the principle of prospering in the land by keeping the commandments –
at the communal level; I do NOT believe in it at the individual level. Life has taught me that – clearly and undeniably. I pretty much agree with everything that’s been said. For me the root of the disconnect is the idea that “there’s a law irrevocably decreed…”. The way I see it we’re entitled to step up and take a few cuts at the ball but that’s all paying tithing, doing home teaching, accepting callings, etc. buys you. The idea that we buy blessings by keeping commandments just makes people bitter when things don’t go their way and has the risk of prompting people to do the right things for the wrong reason. Bad stuff also happens to bad people and good stuff happens to good people. And sometimes bad stuff turns out of be good and good stuff turns out to be bad. Honestly? The only explanation that makes me feel any better is that half of it is random and the other half is a byproduct and unforeseen consequences of our own and others agency. Say you miss a light and get stopped an extra 30 seconds on your way to work. Then you get in an accident. If you had made the light, you wouldn’t have been on a path to get in the accident. God didn’t make you get in the accident and he didn’t decide the exact speed you drove or when you left the house. Yet something bad happened.
One I am dealing with right now is cancer in a family member. It might just be random, or perhaps it is a result of a series of seemingly innocent choices throughout their 60 years that causes Cancer to form. It’s hard not to want to blame God. Any maybe he did do it. Maybe it is something she is supposed to learn from and it will make sense in the next life. But I tend to think it is more of the randomness mixed with unintended consequences of modern society.
Old-Timer wrote:
I believe in the principle of prospering in the land by keeping the commandments –at the communal level; I do NOT believe in it at the individual level. Life has taught me that – clearly and undeniably. I think there is some truth to that, but not because God will bless the society. If the majority of people are honest, charitable, forgiving, non-violent, respectful of property, etc, then that makes for a happy and safe society. It’s kind of like we all bless ourselves and others by living the commandments.
Exactly, Brown. Zion is its own reward – one we give ourselves. The principles of the Gospel simply are the building instructions.
I have always had to question whether God values the “sanctity of human life” the way we do. We emphasize mortality in our view. But God is described as believing the worth of souls is great, not that the length or quality of mortal life is of particular value. Orson wrote:As Hawk said I also see earth life as a time to mostly make our own way and learn to deal with things as they come. I don’t see prayer and spiritual strength as a way to prevent or shorten trials, but I do see spirituality as a help to strengthen us so we can get through the hard times.
Bds4206 wrote:I know people that pay tithing, go to church every week, keep the commandments and do everything they are supposed to do, and do happily and just can’t seem to catch a break. I’ve known many many non religious people that are the exact opposite and they do great. How does that make any sense ?
Yes, I know those people as well. I have grown into the idea that (book of Orson here) spiritual blessings are the result of spiritual efforts, and physical fruits can be the result of physical efforts. Spiritual blessings lie along the lines of peace, faith, emotional strength, etc. They don’t circumvent trials, they help us get through them.
On the other hand physical fruits can be obvious, but personally I think in our culture the signals have gotten crossed and people have attributed physical fruits to spiritual efforts in error. I believe D&C 30:20-21, that blessings are tied to laws; but in my opinion economic fruits are tied to economic laws, spiritual benefits are tied to spiritual practices, etc. That is why even an “unbeliever” that obeys the economic laws are rewarded in kind.
I like this Book of Orson and would like to receive a copy in the mail
anyway, I appreciate your take, but to me the idea that good things happen for bad people, and vice / versa blows the thought of praying for physical things out of the water, or the thought that paying tithing will help you access blessings of prosperity. To me those ideas completely contradict each other.
Roy wrote:Orson wrote:On the other hand physical fruits can be obvious, but personally I think in our culture the signals have gotten crossed and people have attributed physical fruits to spiritual efforts in error.
This was
thebig false assumption that caused my faith crisis. Yes, I knew that bad things happen to good people. I just felt that being a member of the true church, and paying an honest tithe, and wearing the temple garment properly, and honoring my priesthood would A) mitigate the bad that must happen and would outright prevent bad that was preventable. I felt that I had heard a million stories with just that theme. Wasn’t the whole message of the BOM that righteous people will prosper in the land? What is the quantifiable benefit of doing these things?My introduction had this same title: When bad things happen to good people –
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1937 I also have belatedly come to the worldview where God doesn’t or can’t intervene in daily life. This does cause me to disbelieve many divine intervention stories. When I hear people saying that fortuitous coincidences where put in motion by God for their personal benefit, then I tell myself that their interpretation helps them to be happy and see the world as a comfortable and safe place. I am genuinely happy for them in their interpretation; it just doesn’t work for me.
The one exception in my worldview of the “divine non-interference clause” is to send a general sense of peace and wellbeing. I want to believe that God sends these “love taps” to remind us that he cares – so I do.
Thank you for this. I mean, it just doesn’t make any sense to think that god intervene in peoples lives when you see things like that. How is it possible? Does god really love Donald Trump more than me? Is he really that much more obedient? Etc. Of course not….so isn’t it kind of silly to pray for help finding your wallet or pray that your big order will come in at work? If that doesn’t make any sense to do, what sense does it make to fast? What sense does it make to pay tithing? The church is running out of places to hide money evidently, what’s the point of paying my hard earned few bucks? If I fast, is god really going to grant me with what I pray for? What if I pray for a better job opportunity, will that really be granted? …? I’m glad I’m not the only one that struggles with questions like that.
I believe in the principle of prospering in the land by keeping the commandments –at the communal level; I do NOT believe in it at the individual level. Life has taught me that – clearly and undeniably. I think there is some truth to that, but not because God will bless the society. If the majority of people are honest, charitable, forgiving, non-violent, respectful of property, etc, then that makes for a happy and safe society. It’s kind of like we all bless ourselves and others by living the commandments.
I really like this, and I agree. Being obedient to the words of wisdom can’t help but to improve your life. No body is better off for drinking alcohol or coffee, and no one is better off for having a crappy diet. That doesn’t necessarily mean that god has blessed you for being obedient, it means you’re putting good things in your body, therefore you are probably healthier and more alert day to day than you would be otherwise. Living the commandments and being loving to your family and friends, not lying, cheating and stealing, etc can’t help but to improve your life.
Bds4206 wrote:Thank you for this. I mean, it just doesn’t make any sense to think that god intervene in peoples lives when you see things like that. How is it possible? Does god really love Donald Trump more than me? Is he really that much more obedient? Etc. Of course not….so isn’t it kind of silly to pray for help finding your wallet or pray that your big order will come in at work? If that doesn’t make any sense to do, what sense does it make to fast? What sense does it make to pay tithing? The church is running out of places to hide money evidently, what’s the point of paying my hard earned few bucks? If I fast, is god really going to grant me with what I pray for? What if I pray for a better job opportunity, will that really be granted? …? I’m glad I’m not the only one that struggles with questions like that. Thanks for the response.
I believe that praying for things to happen is helpful in reinforcing a blessing mindset. If I keep praying to find my wallet or for the big order to come in – when it finally does happen I might be more likely to see it as a blessing. If I see life through the blessing mindset I might be more thankful and happier overall.
I tend to fast with a group (extended family, ward) to express solidarity to the community. I rarely fast solo but if I were to do so it would be in an effort to draw closer to God. I’m sure God doesn’t need my fasting so that he can touch my heart. But, as a Mormon, my spiritual routine includes a fast and helps me get into a receptive mindset.
I no longer pay tithing. More than anything else I had understood tithing to be a form of insurance. If I paid faithfully then God would watch my back. There are other reasons for the payment of tithes. It can be to not be a free-loader and help pay church expenses. It can be as a humbling reminder that I am but a temporary steward of my life and I will one day surrender the whole of it back to my Lord. It can be to maintain access to the temple. But for me personally, I am still smarting from the disillusionment that God wasn’t watching my back and all the tithing/protection money that I had paid didn’t help when I needed it most. My problem wasn’t really with tithing but with the expectations that I had built around it and I am still healing from that. I remain open to paying tithing sometime in the future when I am ready.
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