If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

… Summarizing the view taken by Latter-day Saint scholars on this point, Daniel H. Ludlow emphasizes the inherent variety of independent translation and concludes: “There appears to be only one answer to explain the word-for-word similarities between the verses of Isaiah in the Bible and the same verses in the Book of Mormon.” That is simply that Joseph Smith must have opened Isaiah and tested each mentioned verse by the Spirit: “If his translation was essentially the same as that of the King James version, he apparently quoted the verse from the Bible.”

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng

In reading Ludlow’s statement it says to me that the conclusion you get is based on what you believe going in, not any “facts” or “evidence”, and as my estranged daughter says “if that’s what you believe then that’s the way it is”. I’m in the middle of 3rd Nephi now and I’m aftraid after going through the sermon on the mount passages and other quotes from the KJV, I feel differently than you two do but then it likely has to do with my mindset going in.

What are the possible/plausible explanations for the issue? I have wondered about this issue myself but haven’t had time to investigate it further.

What are the possible/plausible explanations for the issue? I have wondered about this issue myself but haven’t had time to investigate it further.

A few:

1. God is the author of all his scripture. Any great communicator will have a consistent ‘brand message’ so it’s normal that God’s word in the Bible is similar to other scriptures. There are only so many ways to say “be excellent to each other.” I was reading the NeiYe the other day (thanks Wayfarer). There’s a section that as good as says “things to act and things to be acted upon.” And every religion has the Do unto others approach. If God’s behind it all (and I believe he is) then the message is consistent.

2. As Joseph translated there were certain passages that seemed familiar and as he studied it out the KJV seemed like a reasonable way of translating it and the spirit confirmed it. Perhaps there were other times when he tried a KJV expression and a stupor of thought meant he had to try again with a different wording of the translation.

3. He copied it verbatim from the KJV. There are no contemporary quotes of people ever seeing him do this. Emma also says he was not a strong Bible scholar. But, even so, he either used a KJV bible in some parts and was directed by God to do so.

4. Or… He’s a fraud and a plagiarist who is being ‘found out.’

I go with a combination of 2 or 3.

I look at this like the temple endowment. There is significant evidence that the endowment ceremony borrows heavily from Masonic ritual. I consider it probable that the Masonic ritual was largely an invention of the Masons and was not related in any direct way to Solomon’s Temple or to early Christianity. My conclusion is that JS was inspired by certain divine principles he saw in the Masonic ritual and modified it to teach those same principles to his followers.

With the BOM the origin is much less clear. But if we apply the same thought process as with the endowment ceremony then JS could have borrowed ideas from View of the Hebrews, the Bible, revolutionary war stories, his father’s vision of the tree of life, Christopher Columbus, and/or any other source and still have the resulting work be inspired. Could it not be that JS was inspired by certain divine principles he saw in various source documents and combined them and modified them into a unique new document? Can we not look at the fruits of the BOM and conclude that if it is so inspire-ing then it must be inspired?

Of course the next question becomes about scripture inerrancy, and Word of God, and scripture making.

Could LOTR or Harry Potter be found on a distant planet by an alien race and become their scripture and Word of God (assuming that they have a way to decipher English) in just as valid a way as we came by our own scriptures? What if the Alien prophet couldn’t really read English but found the discovery of the book and its occasional illustrations so inspiring that he filled in the blanks and created a “translation” for his people that was actually a new creation very loosely based on the original work? What if in this “translation” the alien prophet was inspired to directly insert sacred sayings of the alien people into his new work? This would serve to make the characters in the new book much less foreign (they believe and practice religion in much the same way as we do) and would validate and confirm that the “sacred sayings” are indeed sacred and of ancient origin.

Would this alien prophet and his book be a fraud?

Does this hypothetical situation apply to the story of JS? Why or why not?

Does this exercise challenge our understandings of what is means to be a “prophet” or “fraud”? How so?

Couldn’t God still be behind it all? LOTR or Harry Potter being found on a distant planet is fairly miraculous after all. Maybe God provides the catalyst and then lets things play out.

Or God could also be involved in all the minutia of the scripture making process from start to finish – from idea generation to editing to chapter headings to final publishing and cover art.

Probably a good thing the KJV is not subject to copyright laws, as that would change the opinion of the myriad of borrowed lines of text appearing throughout the BoM. Lawyers would have a field day and make lots of money.

Personally I find it very unlikely that Joseph would take the time to exhaustively compare two scripts, and then choose to use secondary source material for use in the primary manuscript. It sets off my baloney meter. It seems way more work than straight translation, considering he would have to translate each word or paragraph he was comparing anyway.

Without taking the time to translate and compare, it would be very difficult to know where to start, where to stop, what to borrow, and in what order to arrange the borrowed text. Thus, I don’t buy the argument that it was somehow easier.

The fact that the Angels came back for the plates that were originally buried in a hill is the part of that whole story that is maybe the most unbelievable to me. I mean, those plates sat in upstate New York for all that time and angels were concerned about others examining them? That’s very fishy to me.

Yes, I think Joseph would have been hounded endlessly if people thought he had golden plates. He had to be rid of them somehow, and those magic moments only happen when no one is around to see.

I would assume he just put some pages from the KJV in his hat with the stone.

I actually don’t have a problem with it so much.

I’m with BDS in that the plates being taken to heaven weakens the while story for me.

But at this point even if it was all made up I still can find value in it. There are too many parts that ring true to me… At least doctrinally… Maybe not historically…

Given the cost of a bible in those days compared to a farm labourers wages… probably not going to be tearing pages out of one

But I agree with your point.