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I promised on another thread to share the talk I gave in Sacrament recently. A huge thanks to all of you here for sharing your perspectives, providing me support and a way for this talk to even be possible at all. Copied here in full for whatever purpose it may serve:
Discovering our Boundless God and Selves through PrayerMatthew 7:7-11
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened…. What man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? If ye then… know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Throughout time and cultures, people have believed in many forms of devotional acts and communication with God. Although prayer takes many forms they all rely on a belief that there is a God who we can communicate with and a God who is interested in hearing us.
In 1978, under the direction of President Spencer W. Kimball, the first presidency made the statement that:
“The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/i-have-a-question?lang=eng The August 2000 Ensign quoted Elder B.H. Roberts of the quorum of the seventy who said:
“While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men; and it is one of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth yet he (meaning God) is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. God raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend. … All the great teachers are servants of God; among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them.”http://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter-day-saint-perspective-on-muhammad?lang=eng Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf,
“Latter-day Saints believe that all human beings are God’s children and that He loves all of us. He has inspired not only people of the Bible and the Book of Mormon but other people as well to carry out His purposes through all cultures and parts of the world. God inspires not only Latter-day Saints but also founders, teachers, philosophers, and reformers of other Christian and non-Christian religions… The Latter-day Saint perspective is that of the eleventh article of faith: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may”(Articles of Faith 1:11). http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/global-mormonism-21st-century/20-church-cross-cultural-world This teaches us that inspiration from and interaction with God, through prayer, is a gift he has offered to all of his children, of all nations and cultures.
It serves many special purposes. I would like to touch on a few that are of value to me.
Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
When I read verses like this I pause and ask myself: Is life a test or series of hurdles set by a God looking to make life increasingly difficult to measure our diligence? And is prayer the way we find a way to submit? I don’t see it to be so. Gold is not put through the fire to see if it is weak or to try to break it but to enhance it, improve it and make it stronger or purer.
At the pinnacle of Jesus Christ’s mortal experience, when, in Gethsemane, he faced the prospect of going “through the fire” and being “tried as gold,” he, like in Zechariah, “called on the name of God” and said (in Luke 22:42-43):
Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.This emulated the model of prayer which he had previously taught to his disciples in Jerusalem, and which he would later reemphasise to the Nephites: (Matthew 6:9)
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven… Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.When I read these two passages, and consider that Jesus asks for the trial to be removed if possible, but ultimately aligns with the will of his Father I am reminded that the Atonement wasn’t only the will of the Father, but also, originally, the will of the pre-mortal Son.
We read in the Pearl of Great Price and in the James E Talmage’s ‘Jesus the Christ’ that
“Jesus…existed with the Father prior to birth in the flesh; and…in the pre-existent state He was chosen and ordained to be the one and only Savior and Redeemer of the human race”He was not chosen as an unwilling sacrificial lamb, but an active and ready participant who even before the world was created, said (Abraham 3:27),
“Here am I, send me.”Jesus was not the only voluntary participant in the choice to experience life’s opportunities and challenges, delights and disappointments.
Abraham saw (Abraham 3:22-23) “many of the noble and great ones… and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them.”
We see Adam and Eve a model for our own experience. Before they could transition into this world or what we call the mortal probation, they, and by implication we, are taught that “thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee.”
The church’s Gospel Topics entry on Foreordination teaches that “The doctrine of foreordination applies to all.” It also says that foreordination does not guarantee that individuals will receive certain opportunities or responsibilities but that they come as a result of our choices.
What, you might ask, does this all have to do with prayer?
Shakespeare’s Hamlet says, “When sorrows come, they come not single spies But in battalions.” In the midst of challenges, our first thought of prayer might be as a request to relieve or remove the causes of trials and troubles. Sometimes we consider these prayers answered because the challenge is alleviated and we express appreciation for God’s tender mercies. At other times we wonder why the supplication for change goes unanswered.
The Bible Dictionary says: “As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are His children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part… Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other.” Given we are here with a God-given veil of forgetfulness that blocks our memories of the pre-mortal existence, prayer can also be act by which the will of our mortal, forgetful self and the will of our spiritual or eternal self are brought into correspondence with each other.
The gospel does not teach us that specific scripts were written for us before we were born. But foreordination suggests that we were aware of some the types of opportunities and trials we might have in life and accepted them willingly.
It might make some recoil at the idea that the terrible trials we experience are of our own choosing. Not through earthly mistakes but through pre-earthly desires to go through refining fires.
This situation is illustrated by two writers, separated by over 2,500 years. Plato and JK Rowling.
“Plato… thought life was most likely a choice… spirits were allowed to select their lives from a range of situations and environments. Intuitively, most would choose the easy and attractive path through mortality, but Plato indicates that… the comfortable, effortless life was, in all likelihood, not the life most wisely chosen. The greater good… was the quest for greater virtue and goodness… “call a life worse,” he said, “if it leads a soul to become more unjust, and better if it leads the soul to become more just.”The God Who Weeps (p.60), Terryl & Fiona Givens
In Harry Potter, there is a scene where one of the wizards, Dumbledore, needs to drink a large bowl of dangerous potion and asks Harry to make sure he completes the task:
“…this potion,”Dumbledore says “… might paralyse me, cause me to forget what I am here for, create so much pain I am distracted, or render me incapable in some other way. This being the case, Harry, it will be your job to make sure I keep drinking… do I have your word that you will do all in your power to make me keep drinking?”In a harrowing experience, Harry makes Dumbledore drink the potion, even when Dumbledore pleads for the pain to be removed.
“I don’t want to… make it stop…”to which Harry can only reply “You’ve got to keep drinking, remember? You told me you had to keep drinking.”I’m not suggesting we elevate Harry Potter to the status of a god (though some happily do anyway), but if, as Enoch teaches us, God weeps at our sorry and our misery (Moses 7:28,40), perhaps it is because God could stop the pain at any moment of His choosing but does not, because He recognises that to do so would be to break an agreement already made with us and to take away an experience we already embraced before coming to earth.
In Hymn 142 we sing:
Sweet hour of prayer! Sweet hour of prayer! That calls me from a world of care, And bids me at my Father’s throne, Make all my wants and wishes known.In prayer we have the opportunity to make known to ourselves the wants and wishes of our inner, eternal self. Prayer is the gift God has given to every oneof his children throughout time and cultures to help each of us to discover and become our very best selves. When I reflect on my most treasured experiences of prayer, they have been the times when, in praying, I have been able to see myself as God sees me and as my eternal self truly wants me to be.
On one occasion, while praying on a mountain-top in Italy, I offered up a prayer of frustration and expressed a feeling of inadequacy. Why do I fall short, I asked. Why am I not good enough? In a wonderful experience, which can be best described as the dawn breaking and sun rising on the inside of me, I simply received an overwhelming impression: “You are good enough.”
Another occasion, earlier this year resulted in a different experience. Having not long received the news of a family member’s serious illness and in the midst of other personal uncertainties I turned to my knees. I offered a simple prayer with an acknowledgement that some of my hesitance was in part of my own making. I expressed a desire to rekindle my confidence and trust Him. When I started to pray I had been hoping for something spectacular, a life affirming moment of undeniable clarity. Instead I finished the prayer with a simple and calm impression that taught me that this was not the time and season for spectacular answers to blow away concerns but instead a need for a simple and consistent application of gospel principles which would be the steps that made all the difference. In quiet reflections and consistent living would come the greatest experiences.
Finally, I consider prayer as an opportunity to better know God. Elder Jeffrey R Holland in General Conference in 2003, quoting Joseph Smith, said:
“Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive…”http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/10/the-grandeur-of-god?lang=eng It is in this description and understanding of God that I hope to develop a greater relationship with and devotion to.
I really love this talk. My only concern is with the doctrine of foreordination. I do not believe that the specifics of our lives were known by our spiritual selves. I believe that our pre-mortal spirits ratified a plan where we each would have to face the vicissitudes and uncertainties of life. The process has purpose – even when the individual tragedies may not. I understand that this is my own preference only. This talk is inspiring and well laid out. I also seem to remember something about a metaphorical interpretation for the endowment ceremony. After this tender morsel my interest is doubly piqued!
Roy wrote:I really love this talk. My only concern is with the doctrine of foreordination. I do not believe that the specifics of our lives were known by our spiritual selves. I believe that our pre-mortal spirits ratified a plan where we each would have to face the vicissitudes and uncertainties of life. The process has purpose – even when the individual tragedies may not. I understand that this is my own preference only. This talk is inspiring and well laid out.
I also seem to remember something about a metaphorical interpretation for the endowment ceremony. After this tender morsel my interest is doubly piqued!
I agree and am not fully satisfied by that part either. I wanted to say more but struggled to find church sources to use. I knew that if I strayed too far into speculation that I would lose my audience.
Personally I believe in an eternal ‘me.’ I consider Mormonism’s version of pre/post ‘me’ to be the most satisfying.
When I talk of foreordination I don’t believe for a minute in a checklist of trials that we selected in the pre-mortal existence. But I do believe that we accepted the possibility of certain experiences.
I imagine a scenario of saying “God, if scenario X happens, don’t listen to me when I ask for it to be removed. I want to experience it fully for my own journey of ‘becoming’ my best eternal self.”
Thank you. Wonderful talk. mackay11 wrote:IAnother occasion, earlier this year resulted in a different experience. Having not long received the news of a family member’s serious illness and in the midst of other personal uncertainties I turned to my knees.
I offered a simple prayer with an acknowledgement that some of my hesitance was in part of my own making. I expressed a desire to rekindle my confidence and trust Him.When I started to pray I had been hoping for something spectacular, a life affirming moment of undeniable clarity. Instead I finished the prayer with a simple and calm impression that taught me that this was not the time and season for spectacular answers to blow away concerns but instead a need for a simple and consistent application of gospel principles which would be the steps that made all the difference. In quiet reflections and consistent living would come the greatest experiences. Thanks for this talk, and this in particular.
mackay11 wrote:Roy wrote:I really love this talk. My only concern is with the doctrine of foreordination. I do not believe that the specifics of our lives were known by our spiritual selves. I believe that our pre-mortal spirits ratified a plan where we each would have to face the vicissitudes and uncertainties of life. The process has purpose – even when the individual tragedies may not. I understand that this is my own preference only. This talk is inspiring and well laid out.
I also seem to remember something about a metaphorical interpretation for the endowment ceremony. After this tender morsel my interest is doubly piqued!
I agree and am not fully satisfied by that part either. I wanted to say more but struggled to find church sources to use. I knew that if I strayed too far into speculation that I would lose my audience.
Personally I believe in an eternal ‘me.’ I consider Mormonism’s version of pre/post ‘me’ to be the most satisfying.
When I talk of foreordination I don’t believe for a minute in a checklist of trials that we selected in the pre-mortal existence. But I do believe that we accepted the possibility of certain experiences.
I imagine a scenario of saying “God, if scenario X happens, don’t listen to me when I ask for it to be removed. I want to experience it fully for my own journey of ‘becoming’ my best eternal self.”
I agree that to be too speculative might lose your audience. Best to introduce new information in small doses. You already address well that God is active through the whole of the human family and not just the LDS. I especially love how you imply that J.K. Rowling could be an inspired teacher.I can’t help but notice that we are using the word “speculate” to mean depart from orthodoxy – since the entire concept of a pre-mortal life is quite speculative in itself.
The quote that best represents my view of foreordination is from SWK in his talk “Tragedy or Destiny”
Quote:We knew before we were born that we were coming to the earth for bodies and experience and that we would have joys and sorrows, ease and pain, comforts and hardships, health and sickness, successes and disappointments, and we knew also that after a period of life we would die. We accepted all these eventualities with a glad heart, eager to accept both the favorable and unfavorable. We eagerly accepted the chance to come earthward even though it might be for only a day or a year. Perhaps we were not so much concerned whether we should die of disease, of accident, or of senility. We were willing to take life as it came and as we might organize and control it, and this without murmur, complaint, or unreasonable demands.
When I first read SWK’s talk it was jarring to me in its admission of uncertainty. “Shouldn’t a Prophet of God know these things?” I thought! Now it is one of my favorites.
If I ever get asked to speak again in SM I’m going to borrow from your ideas Mackay11
Roy wrote:mackay11 wrote:Roy wrote:I really love this talk. My only concern is with the doctrine of foreordination. I do not believe that the specifics of our lives were known by our spiritual selves. I believe that our pre-mortal spirits ratified a plan where we each would have to face the vicissitudes and uncertainties of life. The process has purpose – even when the individual tragedies may not. I understand that this is my own preference only. This talk is inspiring and well laid out.
I also seem to remember something about a metaphorical interpretation for the endowment ceremony. After this tender morsel my interest is doubly piqued!
I agree and am not fully satisfied by that part either. I wanted to say more but struggled to find church sources to use. I knew that if I strayed too far into speculation that I would lose my audience.
Personally I believe in an eternal ‘me.’ I consider Mormonism’s version of pre/post ‘me’ to be the most satisfying.
When I talk of foreordination I don’t believe for a minute in a checklist of trials that we selected in the pre-mortal existence. But I do believe that we accepted the possibility of certain experiences.
I imagine a scenario of saying “God, if scenario X happens, don’t listen to me when I ask for it to be removed. I want to experience it fully for my own journey of ‘becoming’ my best eternal self.”
I agree that to be too speculative might lose your audience. Best to introduce new information in small doses. You already address well that God is active through the whole of the human family and not just the LDS. I especially love how you imply that J.K. Rowling could be an inspired teacher.I can’t help but notice that we are using the word “speculate” to mean depart from orthodoxy – since the entire concept of a pre-mortal life is quite speculative in itself.
The quote that best represents my view of foreordination is from SWK in his talk “Tragedy or Destiny”
Quote:We knew before we were born that we were coming to the earth for bodies and experience and that we would have joys and sorrows, ease and pain, comforts and hardships, health and sickness, successes and disappointments, and we knew also that after a period of life we would die. We accepted all these eventualities with a glad heart, eager to accept both the favorable and unfavorable. We eagerly accepted the chance to come earthward even though it might be for only a day or a year. Perhaps we were not so much concerned whether we should die of disease, of accident, or of senility. We were willing to take life as it came and as we might organize and control it, and this without murmur, complaint, or unreasonable demands.
When I first read SWK’s talk it was jarring to me in its admission of uncertainty. “Shouldn’t a Prophet of God know these things?” I thought! Now it is one of my favorites.
If I ever get asked to speak again in SM I’m going to borrow from your ideas Mackay11
Brilliant Roy, thank you. Now I just wish that I could use Hermione’s time turner to go and re-do the talk with this quote included.
I also would have liked to spend time taking about how this theme can potentially excuse us from trying to dig ourselves out of a hole or pulling others out of it. I the beggar ‘wanted’ pain for gain in the ‘pre’ why should we relive him of it today. Matthew 25 makes it clear that this isn’t acceptable. Seeing another in pain still demands of us a response. mackay11 wrote:I also would have liked to spend time taking about how this theme can potentially excuse us from trying to dig ourselves out of a hole or pulling others out of it. I the beggar ‘wanted’ pain for gain in the ‘pre’ why should we relive him of it today. Matthew 25 makes it clear that this isn’t acceptable. Seeing another in pain still demands of us a response.
Great point! I particularly dislike the idea that was so prevalent in our church history and has not yet been replaced with an alternative theory that valiance in the pre-mortal life dictates our mortal situation. It not only stops us from helping those in need – but it also heaps scorn and ridicule upon them.
Quote:“Do any of us bargain for our lives? It seems to me that people just fall into them and then do the best they can.” Liz Murray (inspirational speaker born to drug addicted parents, homeless at 15, went on to largely overcome her misfortune)
One idea that I like (pure speculation mind you) is that people are put in certain scenarios for the good of all. The rich and powerful are given opportunity that they may lift their brothers and sisters that all may be edified. The poor and needy are given their situation to stir compassion, service, and selfless love in the hearts of their brothers and sisters that all may be edified. In short, our different stations in life are given to encourage us to complement each other and cover each others weaknesses, to unify in our diversity into a body of saints (body of Christ, Zion). We need each other – the whole of the human family – in order to reach a fullness of joy.I fully agree with that speculation and was one reason why I’d included the Plato quote. I’m sure there must be some GA quotes from the archives that could be pieced together to support that perspective.
I’m also of the opinion that the less rigid the person’s moral framework the more admirable their positive achievements. There is sometimes scorn on Hinduism or Atheism which, to the ignorant observer appears to be ‘setting your own standards’ with the associated presumption that this makes their life easy. Quite the opposite. The challenge of setting a standard and sticking to it with only yourself to answer to is admirable, compared to a perception of a God that rewards or punishes based on ones obedience.
mackay11 wrote:I fully agree with that speculation and was one reason why I’d included the Plato quote.
I’m sure there must be some GA quotes from the archives that could be pieced together to support that perspective.
I’m also of the opinion that the less rigid the person’s moral framework the more admirable their positive achievements. There is sometimes scorn on Hinduism or Atheism which, to the ignorant observer appears to be ‘setting your own standards’ with the associated presumption that this makes their life easy. Quite the opposite. The challenge of setting a standard and sticking to it with only yourself to answer to is admirable, compared to a perception of a God that rewards or punishes based on ones obedience.
Quite literally the difference between being a child and an adult. As I child we need parents to set rules, enforce punishments, etc. As adults we have to be able to manage ourselves with much less outside influence.
It goes back to the being adults of God concept that’s mentioned on here from time to time. I think it’s a great principle. I’ve struggled as I’ve had to reevaluate my moral system as my faith has changed. And it does so much to boost my self-esteem to think that even without the threats of punishment from church or whatever I am still a good, moral person. It makes me feel good that that can come from inside me rather than just because it is forced on me.
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