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I have a question. If Alma the Elder followed after King Noah’s example, then how did he have the priesthood authority to baptize others and himself? I have talked with other members about this, but there’s a lot of confusion. Your thoughts? “We don’t know” – or, “He didn’t – in the classic sense we think of it now” – or, “He was ordained through the classic line but ‘apostatized’ when Noah became king, so his former ordination was re-energized when he repented” – or anything else that makes sense, since, ultimately, we don’t know, based on the record itself. Any attempt to give a normative answer is speculation only.
From the Church’s Institute “Book of Mormon Student Manual” ( http://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-21-mosiah-18-24?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-21-mosiah-18-24?lang=eng Quote:Mosiah 18:12–18. Alma Held the Priesthood
•President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) explained that Alma had authority to baptize:
“We may conclude that Alma held the priesthood before he, with others, became disturbed with King Noah. Whether this is so or not makes no difference because in the Book of Mosiah it is stated definitely that he had authority [see Mosiah 18:13].”
I used to own the Book of Mormon study manual that said the same comment. When I was on my mission me and another missionary were talking about Alma the Elder in Mosiah, that missionary believed that Alma had lost the priesthood authority because of that scripture in D & C saying that when a priesthood holder uses unrighteous dominion they lose their priesthood authority. Ilovechrist77 wrote:I used to own the Book of Mormon study manual that said the same comment. When I was on my mission me and another missionary were talking about Alma the Elder in Mosiah, that missionary believed that Alma had lost the priesthood authority because of that scripture in D & C saying that when a priesthood holder uses unrighteous dominion they lose their priesthood authority.
Yeah, but if we really took that literally then there would be many men (Including Bishops, SP’s, and GA’s) without priesthood authority and the whole priesthood structure could callapse on itself.
I had asked my Institute instructor a similar question…If Alma can receive his preisthood through an apostate sect – is it possible that the catholic church could today contain some dormant priesthood authority?
The alternative is that Alma received the priesthood in much the same way that others did, before the concept of angels restoring it arrived. As a bestowal of power from God. If God wants a man to act in his name, why would God need another human to give it to him. If my boss needs me to attend a meeting on his behalf he doesn’t first give one of my peers the right who then gives it to me. He just gives it to me. And he doesn’t need to be there in person. He can do it remotely. Email, phone, text.
There’s a hole in the story. All of Noah’s advisers were called ‘priests’ – if they all had the Aaronic priesthood then where did they all get it from?
Why was it that when Alma returned to Zarahemla he organises a church and ordains priests. Why wasn’t it already in place?
Mosiah 25:19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.
On the other hand…
Alma only baptised the people of Limhi, suggesting the Zarahemlaites were already baptised.
17 And it came to pass that after Alma had taught the people many things, and had made an end of speaking to them, that king Limhi was desirous that he might be baptized; and all his people were desirous that they might be baptized also.
18 Therefore, Alma did go forth into the water and did baptize them; yea, he did baptize them after the manner he did his brethren in the waters of Mormon; yea, and as many as he did baptize did belong to the church of God; and this because of their belief on the words of Alma.
So they belong to the church of God and then (in v.19) Alma is put in charge of this (already existant?) church and grows it. Maybe Mosiah was both King and head of the church until then (Benjamin appeared to be, as did Nephi1). Maybe this is simply a delegation of power.
In which case, if the church and priesthood existed already in Zarahemla then Alma’s predecessor in the land of Lehi-Nephi could have arrived with Zeniff (Mosiah 9) with the priesthood and given it to the next generation.
Quote:is it possible that the catholic church could today contain some dormant priesthood authority?
This is one area where I absolutely am unorthodox, since I believe there is a good argument to be made that a priesthood of believers with real divine power has existed on the earth, at least somewhere (and, imo, in many places that would not be imagined by most members), pretty much continually.
Look at Moses. He is said to have received the Priesthood from his father-in-law, Jethro – and we have no “Priesthood line of authority” for him.
Easy answer, there is no such thing as priesthood. At least In the sense that it is something that god bestowed. It is an earthly construct so it can operate in any manner it wants depending on those who are administering it. Your question requires a factual predicate: that there actually was a person named Alma living roughly 100 BC in the Western Hemisphere. Since I don’t know for sure whether or not that’s true, I take the stories from the BoM, including Alma’s inspiring repentance and redemption, as allegories. That way my head doesn’t get wrapped around historical conundrums like the one you presented – I just get to take the positive messages out of the stories. I honestly don’t think I lose anything by taking this perspective. Like Ray had stated at the start of this conversation. It has always been my opinion that he already had the Priesthood from a legitimate source but during the reign of King Noah he lost God’s power to act in his name. Whether fiction or not, Alma’s story presents an interesting situation. There is nothing to suggest Alma was not a part of the behaviour of Noah and his priests:
Mosiah 11
“Yea, and they did commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness…his priests, and their wives and their concubines… they were supported in their laziness, and in their idolatry, and in their whoredoms… and so did also his priests spend their time with harlots… made wine in abundance; and therefore he became a wine-bibber, and also his people.”
Skip forward to Mosiah 17:
“1 And now it came to pass that when Abinadi had finished these sayings, that the king commanded that the priests should take him and cause that he should be put to death.
2 But there was one among them whose name was Alma, he also being a descendant of Nephi. And he was a young man, and he believed the words which Abinadi had spoken, for he knew concerning the iniquity which Abinadi had testified against them; therefore he began to plead with the king that he would not be angry with Abinadi, but suffer that he might depart in peace.”
If I did the above I would probably be excommunicated and have to go through a long round of discipline to be considered ‘forgiven.’ For Alma it seems to be a far more private and introspective experience.
“1 And now, it came to pass that Alma, who had fled from the servants of king Noah, repented of his sins and iniquities, and went about privately among the people, and began to teach the words of Abinadi–“
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