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Was talking to my daughter who has a lot of empathy. She has this uncanny ability to determine how others are feeling. Not just me, but others (nothing supernatural, she is usually correct, sometimes makes errors, butis VERY observant and tells me she FEELS how others are feeling sometimes). She observed how my parents tend to favor my brother and sister when we were visiting them recently. She asked why, and I commented on how excluding them from the temple and adopting a set of controversial LDS beliefs was a contributing cause. She said “but the Lord will bless you for making that choice”….
I guess I kind of rolled my eyes as I no longer believe I made the rigth decision excluding them from the wedding as non-members by getting a temple marriage. Personally, I’m not sure that there is a direct connection between pro-Church choices and eternal blessings. There have been times when I have not been pro-Church in my behavior (and that means keeping certain commandments such as garment-wearing, sabbath day or tithing). Yet the temporal and other blessings have at times increased due to less stress, greater inner peace, and even greater employment opportunities.
She said “You don’t believe the Lord will bless you for the choices you made in the church…do you???”
I went to reply and she said “Now you’re going to try to back-pedal the feelings you just said and justify that you do have faith, aren’t you???”.
I was speechless, as I was trying to qualify my reaction and feelings, sort of like she said….but was having trouble processing such a blunt and insightful charge against my thinking. And yes, I was in back-pedal mode.
I asked if she believed that blessings attached to those kind of Church behaviors. And she said “I do”.
I complemented her on her faith.
She said “
you don’t have faith anymore, do you….!”Wow, what a terrible experience.
Not sure what to do now. I know my role as a father is critical in her own development, and she is a gem of a TBM. She takes my advice and has neutralized unhealthy church reactions, and I don’t want to leave her with nothing to fall back on or believe in. Comments?
What a wonderful daughter you have there! When I had “the talk” with my kids… and I’m talking about the church talk, here… I was overwhelmed by their lack of disappointment, which is what I expected, and their strong show of commitment and love and respect toward me. In my case, I’m sure to tell them, regularly, that I support them in their faith.
One thing you might consider is to tell your daughter that you believe (I’m assuming, because this is fairly common among the group here)… that you believe that each person has to find the faith that works best for them. That you love that she does believe. That you believe differently, but that you still love her more than anything and that you hope she still loves you, etc, etc, etc. Then, that opens the door to explore the common beliefs that you share, without every needing to tear down any specific belief of the other.
I firmly believe that the Church would be a better place if people thought of their faith as their choice, and that others also have faith, but that ultimately, we are on the same team together.
These are just thoughts, though… you know your daughter better than anyone else here, so please just take my words as ideas, not advice.
I think that is good advice….for example, my response (and there will be one), may be this… 1. For me, I do not have faith that obeying church policy always leads to blessings. Church policies are not eternal principles, but people confuse them with such. Church policies are not commandments — they often express the will of the leaders who are on the earth at that time, and they can change. The one-year waiting period was a policy, not a commandent as it is different all around the world. It is not doctrine — no one has ever sustained it as doctrine in the church, with doctrine existing in the scriptures — and even the scriptures are open to interpretation.
The decision to exclude my parents was out of compliance with policy, not eternal principles.
2. I have strong faith in blessings that come from natural laws. The fact that I have been chaste, that kindness, love, service, living a clean life all lead to eternal blessings.
I plan to thank her for helping me process this distinction….and let her know its not back-pedalling, it’s qualifying and growing in my understanding of what I believe — something in which I hope she also engages over her lifetime.
I’m open to new perspectives, but OON’s comment above led me this way…
I personally distinguish between “faith” and “certainty” – and between principles and practices – and between the Gospel and the Church – and between formulas and patterns – etc. If I were you, I might start with “we see through a glass, darkly” and talk about how you used to see everything in simple, black-and-white terms, but now you understand things are complicated. I might mention that you don’t see God as a vending machine but as someone who sees the big picture – that we tend to oversimplify even God, and you’ve stopped doing that.
I would answer that you still have faith, it’s just that your faith has changed and you are rediscovering what you really believe and rebuilding your faith. I also would stress that you now are much more open and sympathetic to the idea that everyone sees things a little differently, and that you appreciate that now more than you ever have – which means you appreciate that she sees things in her own way, as well.
I think your response would be spot on. Faith is a choice but also a gift. Your DD sounds very wise and bet that she get it. SilentDawning wrote:Was talking to my daughter who has a lot of empathy. She has this uncanny ability to determine how others are feeling. Not just me, but others (nothing supernatural, she is usually correct, sometimes makes errors, butis VERY observant and tells me she FEELS how others are feeling sometimes).
She observed how my parents tend to favor my brother and sister when we were visiting them recently. She asked why, and I commented on how excluding them from the temple and adopting a set of controversial LDS beliefs was a contributing cause. She said “but the Lord will bless you for making that choice”….
I guess I kind of rolled my eyes as I no longer believe I made the rigth decision excluding them from the wedding as non-members by getting a temple marriage. Personally, I’m not sure that there is a direct connection between pro-Church choices and eternal blessings. There have been times when I have not been pro-Church in my behavior (and that means keeping certain commandments such as garment-wearing, sabbath day or tithing). Yet the temporal and other blessings have at times increased due to less stress, greater inner peace, and even greater employment opportunities.
She said “You don’t believe the Lord will bless you for the choices you made in the church…do you???”
I went to reply and she said “Now you’re going to try to back-pedal the feelings you just said and justify that you do have faith, aren’t you???”.
I was speechless, as I was trying to qualify my reaction and feelings, sort of like she said….but was having trouble processing such a blunt and insightful charge against my thinking. And yes, I was in back-pedal mode.
I asked if she believed that blessings attached to those kind of Church behaviors. And she said “I do”.
I complemented her on her faith.
She said “
you don’t have faith anymore, do you….!”Wow, what a terrible experience.
Not sure what to do now. I know my role as a father is critical in her own development, and she is a gem of a TBM. She takes my advice and has neutralized unhealthy church reactions, and I don’t want to leave her with nothing to fall back on or believe in. Comments?
As I see my faith continually falling apart, this conversation is one of my biggest fears. To those with experience, how old would you start talking to kids about this. My oldest is 6 and she is very keen about the church.Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk 4 Beta
I think it’s a great opportunity to teach acceptance of multiple perspectives, by emphasizing that you are doing the best you can to understand your own faith and trying to accepting of everyone else doing the same thing. I think it’s a great chance to distinguish between a society in which everyone thinks exactly alike and one in which everyone loves each other despite differences. I think it’s all in how you approach it.
SD, I don’t have any wisdom to share – but I wanted you to know that I care. I know that as we raise our kids we make all kinds of mistakes. I believe that the fact that you are putting so much thought into how to answer your daughters concerns means more that the specifics of the answer that you will give. You are raising her with love and compassion – that is the message that will come through when all is said and done. Thanks Roy — the things you said mean a lot. I just spoke to my daughter about this.
I explained the difference between policy and doctrine and that I didn’t believe that blessings always attach to following mere policy . She said she still believes the Lord will bless me for complying with policy.
I indicated that I believe I made a mistake by NOT waiting a year, and that the policy is flawed. That the person who waits a year and gets married in the temple has the same temple blessings as the person who waits a year. That even church leaders make mistakes, and this policy’s intent is to encourage people to get married in the temple from the start because it engenders commitment. Unfortunately, they haven’t balanced the needs of non-member families and that from my perspective, the policy is not sound yet. It also weakens our stance that families are eternal as it alienates non-members who might otherwise join the church. She reiterated her belief that the Lord will bless me even though I didn’t have to have a temple marriage that excludes my family….
And then I asked — so, do you think I have faith?
She said “yes, but it’s weak”. Apparently I told her once I don’t pray as much anymore because I find the things I pray for rarely come to pass (ouch, I can’t remember saying that, but its true). I asked if she prays for things to happen, and she said yes…that they don’t always come to pass, but I shouldn’t have “given up”. I said I would have to think about what I meant about that… I replied that I should not have given up, and will try to do better.
She then laughed. I asked why and she said “I feel like I’m driving your thoughts. and have given you a homework assignment”… and then as I left, she got up and hugged me tight and thanked me….
Anyway, that was the resolution. I have a daughter who believes she gives her father “thinking homework assignments”
I also realize I have a daughter with her own belief system already, and its far more TBM than mine, probably a reflection of the many FHE’s I held before my own faith crisis.
She sounds wonderful. You are blessed to have her in your life. Quote:“A little child shall lead them.”
Thanks for the story SD. I have been very honest with my kids. I think in the long run its the best policy. Our family has become much closer in our “apostasy.”
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Twenty years ago when I got married, my wife was the only member in her family. In addition, she had many friends from work who where not LDS. We solved that problem by having a separate “ring ceremony”, that was much in the form of a marriage performed by the Bishop. That seemed to ease the pain, but I don’t know if the church allows that any more. It probably depends on what your bishop is willing to do. Quote:I don’t know if the church allows that any more. It probably depends on what your bishop is willing to do.
Why involve the Bishop or ask for permission?My son is getting sealed in the temple then having a ceremony for his finance’s parents and family and all of their non-Mormon friends. (They and my oldest son were the only Mormons at their college, and their best friends are almost all non-Mormon.) They aren’t asking for permission, and they aren’t having the other ceremony in an LDS church.
Solves all the issues.
This was not presented as a possibility for Silent Dawning, and it is not presented as an option for most people getting sealed in the temple now. That ought to change, in my opinion – or we need to allow all members, everywhere to marry civilly and then be sealed in the temple, just like happens in countries that don’t recognize temple sealings as legal weddings.
[Now, as an admin]:
Let’s drop this discussion and get back to the purpose of the post. There are other threads that have discussed the marriage / sealing issue – and another one can be started if someone wants to do so.This post really touched me. The love that you have in your family is so evident. What a tender daughter you have, and it seems as if the apple didn’t fall far from the tree;) My 8 year old sounds very similar to your daughter, which is probably why this post made me a bit teary eyed. My daughter is also VERY intuitive as to what others are thinking/feeling and even seems to understand the motives of others! She has heard me say a couple of negative things about church and hasn’t confronted me, but seems to want to push church on me more than before. I am pretty sure she (and my 13 year old) know and understand WAY more than I think they do. I love hearing how you are responding to her and taking her feelings and beliefs into consideration and are even willing to do “Thinking homework”.
As I mentioned, I have a 13, 8 and 5 year old and I have no idea on how to teach them anymore. I feel that I am going to disappoint (or even scare) them if they found out how I really feel. I am usually one to go with honesty and openness but I don’t feel that is right… at least not yet. Probably has to do with the fact that I don’t really know what I believe anymore. It scares me to not “know” anymore. Sometimes I wish I could go back to KNOWING…and be where I used to be. Life seemed easier to some degree. But no use in wishing for that, my eyes are opened and I can not go back to sleep.
Anyway, thank you posting this and thank you to all that responded. I have more clarity than I did earlier as to how to deal with some of the confusion I am feeling regarding my family and my faith transition…. So much wisdom posted on this board!
I sometimes tend to go to guilt and question myself and that blocks the truth of what I am truly feeling/understanding and seeing. It was pointed out a few times in the responses here that you are seeing things differently, more compassionately, less black and white. I propose that it has to do with Emotional and Spiritual Maturity. I agree with Roy, that what your daughter will remember when she is grown is your compassion and love. I think that will speak VOLUMES more than being a letter of the law, TBM who only keeps the policies and rules with no love, only fear. I will have to remember this for myself when I am tempted to question myself and feel guilt for my faith transition (which is funny since I feel as if I can’t really help it even if I wanted to, it just happened).
I have the fear — intensely right now. I wonder if I’m making the next generation rise with aspirituality. That I’ll be held accountable for not transmitting the values properly…..and so on. I’ve always been TBM throughout my life until a few years ago, so I know that just about any TBM would say I’m doing everything wrong. But my heart is just not in it….it’s full of tension to be half-on in the church while still encouraging your children to be full-on. At some point the tension has to break…
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