KJV errors in BOM

here is an oooold thread on the BOM. JS borrowing from other sources is discussed especially on page 3: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=518&hilit=Plagiarism

I suppose some of the more troubling near quotations would be when the BOM uses phrases and themes from the epistles of the Bible. They wouldn’t have been written by the time Jesus appears in the Americas and we have no other explanation for how the BOM prophets gained access to them…unless the spirit inspired them.

This is a great thread on a related topic – that of the JS translation of the bible: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2339&hilit=Plagiarism

Wayfarer has observed that JS was syncretic. Syncretic means “Reconciliation or fusion of differing systems of belief, as in philosophy or religion, especially when success is partial or the result is heterogeneous.” In the case of JS, he was able to take things from his environment and weave them together in new and different ways.

Didnt know there was a difference, could you elaborate?

Thanks:)

Put it this way, Isaiah was on the plates but why would Jesus Speak Matthew verbatim in America when the four gospels are different.

Frankly, I think the Sermon on the Mount is one of the best sermons ever recorded, so I am cool with it being the centerpiece of a visitation to another people, no matter how the entire book is seen. I know I have reused previous talks I’ve given in one ward or branch that were among my favorites when I visited another ward, so I don’t have a problem with the idea of Jesus giving that sermon twice.

I also really like the subtle differences in the version in the Book of Mormon, compared to the version in Matthew. Chalk it up to whatever, but I like the differences.

I’ve also used the same talk in different wards. But it’s unlikely that they were word for word the same.

Look at the process:

– Matthew: Jesus spoke > notes taken by “unknown” (in Hebrew/Aramaic) > transcribed by “unknown” into Greek (Matthew is attributed in one of those, but later) > Many copies made through the centuries > Translated into English by King James’ scholars in 1611 into poetic English

– 3 Nephi: Jesus spoke > notes taken by Nephi > compiled by Mormon onto Gold plates in ‘Reformed Egyptian’ > Joseph got them and translated them into English.

He translated them with the plates not present and his head, most of the time, in a hat.

So rather than try and contort my head around how the ‘many human hands’ that produced the 3 Nephi and Matthew accounts I go these questions and answers:

1/ Do I believe in God? Yes

2/ Do I believe God inspires men to write words that in turn inspire me? Yes

3/ Do I believe the words of the Sermon on the Mount are inspired, inspiring and worth repeating? Yes

4/ Do I consider Joseph to be a fraud and con-man? No

5/ So how is a near-perfect rendition of Matthew’s version of Sermon on the Mount also found in 3 Nephi? Joseph copied it out of the KJV of the New Testament

6/ Does that mean Christ never visited America? Not necessarily. He might have visited the Americas. He might have given a rendition of the Sermon on the Mount there. But the Book of Mormon’s historicity is no longer the ‘make-or-break’ question about Joseph’s ability to dictate/produce inspiring scripture.

But… I recognise that’s not the case for other people. For those who, reasonably, need the Book of Mormon to be historical to accept Joseph, I still think there is merit to the evidences for it being genuine. I don’t think Joseph could have produced the whole Book of Mormon on his own, as a con. If he got other people ‘in on it’ I don’t think he could have kept them all quiet. I just choose to not wrestle with that question any more and instead judge the ‘fruit’ not the ‘root.’

Brant Gardner is probably the most reputable Book of Mormon historian at the moment. He happily dismisses some of the eroneous evidence for the Book of Mormon. I think it gives far more credibility to the evidences he presents and keeps. If you want to have confidence in the history of the Book of Mormon then it’s worth reading him and others. The evidences against could still be a symptom of the environment in which the book was dictated – but not necessarily the environment in which it was first written.

Sorry for rambling.

I’ve also used the same talk in different wards. But it’s unlikely that they were word for word the same.

I know – and I just don’t care if Joseph “copied” those parts from the Bible – or from memory – or from words that came to him in relative darkness. As I study it out in my heart, I do believe there was inspiration / revelation / divine assistance / whatever going on, and that’s enough for me – even as I continue to study it out in my mind, as well.

Exactly. I’ve let go of the need for it to be historically ‘perfect’ because I know the advice is fantastic.

But I still see some merit to the evidence ‘for’ the Book of Mormon.

But I still see some merit to the evidence ‘for’ the Book of Mormon.

As do I – especially in 1 Nephi and Ether.

Why?

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For me, it seems puzzling the word for word KJV is in there, but also interesting that those sections fit in nicely to the BoM story and how the other parts weave in to it so nicely.

I have found it fascinating there are parts of the BoM that to me are difficult to dismiss out-of-hand, and other parts that seem so difficult to embrace at face value. It creates such an interesting tension for the believer to be at awe how the non-believer can miss things that show the book is true, and completely vice versa.

I personally can’t process it on a black and white scale. It is neither black nor white. It has all the problems I’ve read about and heard on podcasts, and all the beauty I have experienced personally and hear in church on Sunday (ok…sometimes hear on Sunday.). But its up to me on how I process those things.

I guess it makes it easier when I also realize similar inherent problems with the bible, yet so many accept that as scripture. I move away from the literal view, and don’t need word for word accuracy. If God needed that to do His work, I’m sure He’d have had photocopiers and voice recorders invented right out of the Garden of Eden (if you believe there was a literal Garden of Eden).