Is staying really a viable option for me?

Those are deep questions. I have considered them in this context…here are the expected consequences of my decision to no be a TBM or TR-holder — can you live with these yourself (if they happen)?

I have accepted that my daughter may not respect me due to my unorthodox views as she becomes an adult, (my wife and I are letting the TBM principles percolate in her soul). And my daughter is assimilating TBM values readily.

Also, Bishops may force me to do things as my son becomes ordination age — as a TR is a requirement for participating in MP ordinances. Who knows, a Bishop may also insist I get one to officiate in Aaronic Priesthood ordinances when my son turns twelve in a couple years. Who knows what he will do, but I have noticed that when you want something from the church leadership, they use the carrot and stick approach to make you behave TBM. Can you live with your husband or family not participating in certain ordinances, or having to give in to this pressure as your children advance through the rituals of our religion?

These are all the issues a person needs to confront — can you and your husband live with these challenges and conflicts as you continue raising your children in the LDS context, without fully buying into the whole experience?

Another thing to consider is the dislocation it can cause to switch value systems on kids when they are young and forming. I broached the subject with my teenage daughter and it totally floored her, she cried, and then I backpedaled. Will they trust you again if you switch values on them midstream?

I would also consider what value the church provides to you. I asked my wife that value it provides today (it upset her), and the only thing she came up with is that it teaches children such as chastity, honesty, virtue, clean living, no alcohol, smoking or drugs etcetera — at great personal expense and inconvenience. She thinks our kids will go AWOL morally without the church. I asked what else it provided to use as adults, and she said she didn’t want to talk anymore…presumably because she didn’t have a solid answer.

I personally think the church provides associations with good people, although we know they also have their deficits such as judgmentalism and disloyalty when people have unorthodox ideas — they will sell you out in a heartbeat. But they are good people on average, often better than average, on average.

One alternative would be to continue with those aspects of the church that are truly of value…identify what value the church provides and partake of it, giving in return what you think that value is worth…

Maybe staying for one of the meetings, but not really getting heavily involved in other ways. Or going once every two weeks and dedicating the off week to some kind of spiritual family event such as family excursion, longer-term family activity, or even reduce it to once a month. Contributing in ways that are meaningful to you through your labor or finances — as you see fit.

I am only brainstorming. My situation is different and I am coping pretty well right now, in spite of the challenges — each person needs to find their own way.

Hi May. It is so hard to be faced with decisions like these. I relate to much of what you have said. Your question is if staying is a viable option. Only you can decide that. As you know I’m making similar decisions myself, although my spouse is TBM, unlike yours. Still, there are family dynamics to consider either way. Over the past 10 years of my inactivity I have often questioned what it might have been like if things were different and I still attended church. I’ll never know the answer to that, I cannot reconstruct what my family would have been like if that were true. What I’m trying to say without rambling is, you need decide what trade offs you’re willing to make. If 10 years from now your wish you’re children had been taught the principles of the church, you won’t be able to reconstruct that.

Good luck in your decision. I support you in whatever you decide.

Aw, Ray, I was really counting on you to just give me the answer!

42 :ugeek:

On a more serious note, my answer would be to use your heart and your mind – to pray and think about it – and then go with what feels right to you at this time. I personally believe that is “the answer” – but there is a profound principle in saying that the answer to every question is “42”. Maybe there isn’t “the answer”. Maybe there only is “your answer”.

You might have read this post already, but, if you have, read it again in the context of your question in this post:

“Imagine If: A Poem My Daughter Wrote” (http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3098&p=38586&hilit=poem#p38586)

Our bishop, in an email regarding having read RSR, said “Maybe this is just part of your earthly test.” I immediately thought, “Life is not a test. It’s an experience.” I just can’t see this life as a test anymore. I see it more as a range of experiences that we learn from. It does feel like we’re constantly searching for something that is simply intangible.

People refer to these challenges as tests all the time — as if God is trying to see if we will remain faithful in spite of our reason, our life experiences, etcetera. “Test Theory” implies there is only one way to resolve the situation — be TBM. I don’t see it that way — I see it as evolution like you do.

And it can be positive. This evolution away from the church has been good for me in so many ways, and one is feeling a greater sense of peace and excitement about my service….as Steve Jobs said “if you find yourself doing things you don’t feel passionate about too many days in a row, it’s time to make changes”.

Our bishop, in an email regarding having read RSR, said “Maybe this is just part of your earthly test.” I immediately thought, “Life is not a test. It’s an experience.” I just can’t see this life as a test anymore. I see it more as a range of experiences that we learn from. It does feel like we’re constantly searching for something that is simply intangible.

People refer to these challenges as tests all the time — as if God is trying to see if we will remain faithful in spite of our reason, our life experiences, etcetera. “Test Theory” implies there is only one way to resolve the situation — be TBM. I don’t see it that way — I see it as evolution like you do.

And it can be positive. This evolution away from the church has been good for me in so many ways, and one is feeling a greater sense of peace and excitement about my service….as Steve Jobs said “if you find yourself doing things you don’t feel passionate about too many days in a row, it’s time to make changes”.

Yeah, I have been down that road – many tried to convince me in the early days of my crisis of faith that it was a test of faith. Really? Doesn’t God already know what kind of faith I have? The TBM answer to that of course is that God does know, maybe I don’t. Maybe I didn’t, but I certainly do now, test over, let’s get on with it.

So, I’m with you guys. We came here, IMO, to experience mortal life. It’s a journey, an adventure, or as May puts it, an experience. Whether it is positive or negative can be affected by others, but in the end it’s up to each of us to make it positive or negative. We’re the ones that have to live with ourselves. I’m not so sure the different kingdoms are actually different places, I theorize they are more states of being, and we will each have to live with our own state of being because we each will have put ourselves where we are.

MayB, as I read what you wrote I couldn’t help thinking of the analogy of people who are mad at how the US is or embarrassed by their fellow Americans and want to move to Canada. Hell, I moved to Singapore for two and a half years, so I get that (although it was for work, but still, I didn’t miss the guns, god, ‘Merica nonsense). Here’s the main reason I want you to stay: because I want people like you in the church, not people like the ones you and I are both concerned about teaching nonsense to our kids! And yet, my kids can live in the US and see the culture for what it is, the good and bad, and they can still love our country while working to improve it. The church can be the same. We do have to have conversations with them about values and the things they see and hear, but the culture doesn’t have more influence than the family unless we simply don’t have those conversations.

I love the teachings of Jesus. Not the BS some members think are the teachings of Jesus, but the actual teachings in their complexity and enigmatic glory. Church gives me a place to discuss those ideas with others who want to follow them but often misunderstand them.

Their youngest daughter(18) is even more TBM than they are and takes it upon herself to correct them and call them to repentance.

I think you have to instill kids with a dose of skepticism in life. I’ve probably given mine more of a dose than is good for them, but without it they are prone to believe stuff that they shouldn’t. They also might get caught up in the approval of the ward, which is not a good place to be. I have cautioned my kids lots of times to stand up for what they believe even if teachers or other students are going to disapprove of what they say. For instance, my kids have been exposed several times to anti-gay rants. They don’t see this as appropriate or Christian, but they sometimes don’t want to confront it either. We talk about what they can say. For example, the church’s own stance is not anti-gay and doesn’t support rants. The site mormonsandgays will help TBMs understand that they are going too far.

When I look to the future, if we stay there’s a good chance my kids will want to serve missions and/or marry in the temple. I would pretty much have to lie to get a TR because I don’t wear garments (I tried just wearing them on Sunday, but still get a lot of anxiety when I put them on) and I have issues with other things on the list as well. I don’t pay tithing right now because I disagree with the lack of financial transparency and because I feel like that money is put to better use by putting it towards our debts so our family can be more financially secure. Yeah, this is way in the future and things might change by then, but it still weighs on my mind.

The garments question isn’t a deal breaker (there’s discussion elsewhere on this – you have been instructed to “wear them throughout your life” but not necessarily every day and night as the interview question says. My in-laws didn’t pay tithing for years and years and had to start again when we got married. That’s pretty common. I guess I would say, if they choose to marry in the temple or not or choose to go on missions or not, they are still your kids and you love them regardless and you do all you can to support them. I don’t think it’s something to worry about until the time comes. Take it one day at a time.

Looking at my own upbringing in the church, I feel like it hurt me more than helped me in a lot of ways. Of course, I was raised by TBM parents and was a TBM myself which definitely contributed to that. But I look back and see the way I made major life decisions based on what the church had told me was best for me and was what God wanted me to do and it upsets me because most of those decisions were the opposite of what was best for me as an individual and caused me a lot of heartache. I don’t want that for my children. I want them to have healthy attitudes about sex and relationships. I want them to discover who they are and follow the path that they choose, regardless of whether it fits the norm or the expectations taught at church. I don’t want them to constantly be judging others.

That is TOTALLY in your control to teach those better attitudes and to remind them to accept others and not be judgmental. The fact that you are worried about these things is why I want you in the church. I don’t want the only ones left to be judgmental self-righteous busybodies who neither understand nor follow the teachings of Jesus.

I’ve seen the damage that church can cause in families and I’m terrified of it driving a wedge between me and my children.

There will be wedges between parents and children whether you are in or out of the church. You may have different political views, like different books, or have strong opinions about television shows that differ. Kids eventually develop their own identity, and part of that identity is to distinguish him/herself from parents. That manifests in rejection of the parent, at least in part. I hate to say it, but it’s normal and healthy for kids to do this. It hurts, but it’s necessary, just like childbirth.

I guess lately I just feel like there’s less and less in the church that I agree with and I feel like staying and raising my children in this religion would feel hypocritical or dishonest. Does that make sense? I guess I’m trying to answer the question “Why should we stay?”

Well, my plea is this: stay for me. Stay because I feel the same way, and I want you in rather than out because if we get out, the ones left pretty much suck.

Well, my plea is this: stay for me. Stay because I feel the same way, and I want you in rather than out because if we get out, the ones left pretty much suck.

Thanks for your great response hawkgrrrl. Like SD, I don’t really feel right about completely abandoning the church. I guess I just fear going forward as an unorthodox member because I know it will be difficult.

I might add that community exists in a variety of different places — not just the church. I have it in a hobby organization I am part of, I have it in a non-profit (some of the people in it invited me out for an evening, and it was great -with no social pressure to conform to any religious norms). We also work together pretty hard, which I find valuable and community building.

And then, after I simply let my family neglect our relationship (part of the fall-out from joining the church), they finally reached out to me and we spent some time together this year — twice, actually. This is yet another community to which I belong for intense, short periods of time.

Also, I find that the people I gravitate to all tend to have religious values when we get together. They value relationships, they care about service, they are generally honest and kind. They are usually well-educated, or at least have an educated mind. There is a lot of good character in communities outside the church. One’s like does not have to be about the church — it can be about whatever cause or community with which you align yourself….you will likely find the same is true.

I think I’ll follow your lead and start looking for other organizations in our community to be a part of in addition to church. DH and I have talked about finding meaningful service opportunities for our family and I’m excited about the possibilities.

I had a great talk with DH last night. We’ve decided to go forward with our initial plan to have 1 or 2 Sunday’s a month doing family activities and attending church on the other Sundays. When I brought up my fears about future ordinances, attitudes, etc. he told me I worry too much (which is completely true) and that we’ll cross those bridges when we come to them. We’ll be making a very conscious effort to talk to our kids more about what they’re hearing at church and what the teachings of Christ are and how we can apply them in our lives.

Thank you all for being here. Just two days ago I was ready to walk away from all of it, but you’ve shown me the good that can be in the church and convinced me that I should be part of that.