Losing Priesthood Power and Getting It Back

I don’t know about losing the priesthood over minor things, but my husband believes he no longer has the power of the priesthood through being inactive, not tithing and not living the word of wisdom. He also believes that when he decides to go back to church and follows the commandments it will be restored to him. He is not one for reading anything, let alone scriptures, so his feeling either come from church teaching or personal revelation.

To teach that losing the priesthood for being “unkind” smacks of emotional blackmail aimed at youth to keep them in line. Not a good thing.

I have a slightly different view of priesthood. I view it simply as different types of authority.

In my opinion, the priesthood that Mormons employ, the Aaronic Priesthood and Melchizedek Priesthood, are merely ecclesiastical (and man-made) in nature. They should never be confused with the real priesthood or authority of God. This authority comes from God himself and no man can give it to you. So I really don’t understand those in the LDS Church that claim they have this priesthood and then lose it?!? They never had it in the first place. And it is self-evident in my view about who really has God’s Priesthood. Signs follow them. The lame walk. The blind see. And all sorts of what we would call miracles follow them.

However, my own take on this is these people have the right to call upon God’s technology to influence events on our planet. Few beings throughout our history have ever been given this right and for good reason. If I were an advanced species, I would not give a primitive species such as we are, the ability to utilize this type of technology. Almost none of us could control our desires to abuse such power and it would ultimately be destructive in our hands.

Just to make the point, the description of the video didn’t say the boys lost their priesthood or their priesthood authority. It said they lost their priesthood power temporarily. I think that concept is taken from D&C 121, albeit in a passage about unrighteous dominion, and it is a distinction that has been made a lot lately about the difference between “having the Priesthood” and “having power in the Priesthood” – and I really like the fact that it was framed as a temporary condition that can be rectified through repentance (in the wording, by “making it right”).

I don’t want people to feel like they lose Priesthood power every time they make a mistake, and I don’t believe in classic guilting or shaming, but I don’t mind the message that doing things that are quite obvious in their severity (after all, not stealing is one of the Ten Commandments) can move me away from godliness and affect how I am able to be a channel for God’s power to be manifested.

It’s kind of a thin line for me, but I don’t mind the wording of the description of the video. I think it’s a simple reminder of a couple of important principles – and I actually like that being unkind was one of the examples used. That is a direct violation of the second great commandment, and we tend to ignore it so easily. I know I always regret it when I realize I have done so.

I have a slightly different view of priesthood. I view it simply as different types of authority.

In my opinion, the priesthood that Mormons employ, the Aaronic Priesthood and Melchizedek Priesthood, are merely ecclesiastical (and man-made) in nature. They should never be confused with the real priesthood or authority of God. This authority comes from God himself and no man can give it to you. So I really don’t understand those in the LDS Church that claim they have this priesthood and then lose it?!? They never had it in the first place. And it is self-evident in my view about who really has God’s Priesthood. Signs follow them. The lame walk. The blind see. And all sorts of what we would call miracles follow them.

However, my own take on this is these people have the right to call upon God’s technology to influence events on our planet. Few beings throughout our history have ever been given this right and for good reason. If I were an advanced species, I would not give a primitive species such as we are, the ability to utilize this type of technology. Almost none of us could control our desires to abuse such power and it would ultimately be destructive in our hands.

I have to respectfully disagree, Tobin. I do believe the priesthood came from God and that he assigned his angels to ordain JS who passed it on. This is similar to the pattern with the ancient Hebrews and makes sense a similar pattern would occur in the restored gospel. And, as I stated earlier, I do think the priesthood is mostly about having the authority to do things, but I also believe there is an actual power sometimes associated with that authority. The closest I can come is blessing of the sick, which I admit I have never seen anyone actually healed that couldn’t have just been attributed to medical practice, the body’s own amazing healing power, faith, or a combination of those. I do believe it is possible, however, and I do believe it is possible for other priesthood power to manifest itself. I think the limitation is actually human and based on faith or lack thereof.

I understand your beliefs. However, I don’t think they are borne out by the facts. I can not think of anyone in the modern Mormon era that possess this priesthood of God (as I described it). And yes, I know that Mormons bless the sick and do other such things and God may from time-to-time intervene (we have some urban legends at least to that effect). This is not what I’m talking about however. Someone who really possesses the authority of God (or priesthood if you like) commands a thing and it happens. There is no question about it what-so-ever. I do not believe this type of authority is possessed by anyone on the Earth at this time. All Mormons (and others of faith) have are man-made ecclesiastical priesthoods. They possess no authority outside of their religious role and can not demonstrate such an authority with the signs I’ve already pointed out.

I understand your beliefs. However, I don’t think they are borne out by the facts.

I disagree – and I also have a hard time with establishing “the facts” when it comes to things like this. “The facts” ends up being “the stuff I’ve experienced personally and the stuff of which I’m aware that I trust to have happened as someone else sees them”. My experiences, for example, present different “facts” than yours appear to present.

Oh, I’m prepared to be proven wrong. Can you point at one factual, undisputable incident that you know of in which someone experienced a miracle? I’d very much like to speak with someone that actually can verify such a thing.

Someone who really possesses the authority of God (or priesthood if you like) commands a thing and it happens.

This is a great example of what I said above. You haven’t seen this, but I have. Thus, our “facts” differ.

First, I’d like to know who possesses this supposed authority and are they willing to answer some rather pointed questions? Second, I would like to speak with any witnesses and examine any recorded evidence that they have performed any of these types of miracles.

Now, my definition of priesthood power is much more expansive than most members (more along the lines of “the priesthood of believers”, including non-Mormons and Mormon women), but I really do believe in the concept of priesthood power.

I understand that. However, I think we are talking about different things. I’m speaking about something real that can be examined, questioned, and understood. I’m certainly open to changing my view that other’s may have such an authority. The only problem I have is, I’ve never met someone living that does and know of nothing substantiated that can prove such power.

Tobin, I am typing this with a smile on my face, but I have absolutely no desire to share my experiences in order to be dissected and analyzed to see if they can be proven to be objective miracles – especially by someone who is coming into it strongly convinced that they aren’t. I know what I have experienced, and I have examined those experiences as analytically as I can and can find no way to explain them logically (without factoring in the possibility of the miraculous, which is not traditionally logical) – and I also am dead certain that you wouldn’t accept them as incontrovertibly miraculous, just as I am sure at least a couple of other participants here wouldn’t accept them as such.

Oh, I think I’m pretty open-minded about such things and willing to give them a fair look. Remember, I have seen these beings and I know they exist. I just find it unlikely they would capriciously and carelessly give primitive creatures, such as we are, access to this type of power (which I believe is really access to their technical capabilities). That is why I am dubious of such claims. I’ve yet to meet someone in close contact with such beings and employing their power in our world. And if you are such a person, my apologies. I just have never met such an individual before.

If you don’t believe in unexplainable power of some sort that can be accessed by humans, particularly if you have never experienced anything of that nature, I am fine with that. I really am. As I’ve said, at the most fundamental level, we only can “know” (to any degree) what we have studied, witnessed and/or experienced personally – and, even then, we can’t know some of it objectively. We certainly can’t explain to others adequately enough for them to believe if they can’t see what we’ve seen. I also am fine with that. We aren’t looking for unanimity of experience or belief here; we are trying to build a community of diverse people from whom we can learn – particularly in ways that are not natural (that are “foreign”) to us.

Oh, quite to the contrary. I actually believe such claims in the scriptures and other sources may very well have a basis in fact. I’m just interested in really seeing it for myself. That is all.

I have shared the example of Laman and Lemuel and why I think they get a bum rap in the Book of Mormon. The example that related to this thread is when Nephi asked if they have inquired of the Lord to see what Lehi saw – and they respond that the Lord doesn’t make those things known to them. If Nephi (and Lehi) had been open to that as a factual, honest, acceptable answer, we might have a different narrative than we have – if they had understood that some people simply don’t have visions or hear voices or feel soul-burning impressions. Those who have those experiences tend to discount or reject the idea that others don’t have them, while those who don’t have them tend to discount or reject the experiences of those who do have them.

Yes, but Laman and Lemuel saw this power used and had evidence of it. They just chose to ignore what they knew to be true. I’m actually quite open to seeing such a thing and learning about this power from someone in close contact with these beings as Nephi was.

I’d rather be open to both types of lives as legitimate and valuable – as well as all points between those extremes.

That is up to you. My inquiry is in honest earnest to know for myself that you (or anyone else) has such power, how you obtained such power from these beings and what these beings said to you when they granted you this power, under what principles such power is employed and how it works, and what conditions they imposed upon you?!? If you are unwilling or unable to help me, that is entirely up to you. I certainly won’t hold it against you.

Tobin, your response has turned this thread into a discussion of aliens of some sort giving their powers to humans in a direct way – and the only thing that would satisfy that criterion would be something like what Joseph Smith described as opening the last dispensation and the example of the Mount of Transfiguration. Interestingly, Saul’s vision of Jesus would not fit this criterion, and neither would that of Alma the Younger. Finally, such visitations also cannot be proven in any analytical, scientific way. The idea that such visitations can give humans the authority to transfer to others the power given appears to be outside what you are talking about accepting – and I have not claimed at any point that I have been visited by some king of Being(s) who gave me power. Thus, we are at an impasse, and this conversation needs to end.

If that is your point and stance, I am fine with it for you individually – but it won’t be pursued any further in this thread. This thread will stick to the point of the post – the idea that people can lose power through unrighteous behavior and gain it again through repentance. Any reference to direct visitation and bestowal as the only real option will be deleted.

Everyone, back to the question of the post, please.

That’s fair. I guess I’ll reiterate my last position then. I don’t believe that Mormons really have God’s priesthood or authority and it is only ecclesiastical in nature, so I do not believe they can lose it or get it back. And I’ll leave it at that. Thank you for your response as far as it goes Ray and we can perhaps pick this discussion up another time when you wish to discuss it further or it is more relevant to the thread topic under discussion.

Best,

Tobin