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After Ray pointed out the church’s acknowledgement about JS’s indiscretions, I realized that yes, this represents a first positive step toward less whitewashing and Pollyanna-ism by the church regarding its roots. Yet, I remained unsatisfied with my church experience after this step — even with respect to whitewashing. And so, I ask, what would have to change for me to go back to full fledged membership status (TR-holding)? At this point in my life, it would be the following:
A. Reduce the immediate consequences for not behaving like a Good Mormon — and TR holding truly voluntary and based on intrinsic motivation.
B. Portray realistic views of local and current leaders’ rather than the supernatural views talks keep emphasizing. This will prevent loss of faith when leaders invariably act like mortals with weaknesses.
C. Work harder as an organization to improve the average church members’ local experience.
This could be accomplished with these steps:
1. Stop making tithing and garment wearing a TR recommend interview question. Make it truly voluntary.
2. Remove the constant reminders to be good Mormons rather than good Christians (de-emphasize the supporting of local leaders as if they are oracles of inspiration and focus on living the gospel. In short, make church a truly voluntary experience, not an enlisted one, and be realistic about the capacities of leaders at all levels).
3. Make chapel cleaning voluntary rather than assigned and assumed.
4. Stop talks that focus on church worship [glory talks about how wonderful the church is] rather than worship of God].
5. Shoulder more accountability for church actions through apologies, and listening to local leaders on issues of bad leadership.
6. Expand local budgets and access to church resources like counseling.
7. Change home teaching to make it less drugerous and repetitive over your whole life.
I am seeing some positive steps, though, that are shortening my list.
1. There appears to be a deemphasis on women as baby-makers who stay at home and raise children as their primary calling in life — and greater equality. The talk I heard on Sunday was extremely positive in this regard, and it appeared to be quoting from current GA’s. The elevating of Ward council above PEC is a good step, and allowing women to serve missions young.
2. There is less emphasis on having large families now, which points to less egocentrism on the part of the church.
3. DHO apologized for the Mountain Meadows Massacre on a PBS special a few years ago.
What is your list? Of what it would take to make you fully engage with the church experience?
I’ll add my 2 cents: 1) I currently don’t pay tithing and see no reason to ever do so again. I do believe one should dedicate as much as you can to help the poor and needy however. I wouldn’t mind seeing tithing become a 10% guideline as a good thing to set aside 10% or more of your income for such an endeavor. In fact, if the Church were to set up transparent programs for the poor and truly needy, I’d even contribute more than 10% since I can afford to do so.
2) The Church should get out of the underwear business. It is demeaning to the faith. My view is create a bunch of decals we can attach to our undergarments to remind us of our promises. I see nothing wrong with such symbolism.
3) I see nothing wrong with a sacrament meeting once a week and asking people to share their thoughts afterwards. I would have a common meal as well after the sacrament meeting. And I would champion various meetings to do volunteer work in the community during the week. I would make all other meetings optional.
4) I would give local congregations back control of their finances and focus on making them serve their communities. Richer congregations would be expected to help more since they would have more resources to do so.
5) I would change the structure of the bishopric. It should be the Bishop, the Elders Quorum President, and the Relief Society President as his counselors. I would make the Relief Society equal with the Elders Quorum and allow them to call upon God’s priesthood again as they could before.
6) All Church education should be dedicated to helping members achieve higher professional degrees and skills. I would have programs for children such as an after school program for parents that work and to help children with their school work. For adults, I would focus more on what the scriptures say, the history in which they were written, and bring a sense of scholarship to the material presented about the Church and gospel. I would have a highly paid and trained set of professional teachers as well.
Wait… I missed a thread somewhere. The church acknowledged JS’s indiscretions? Recently? ETA: Nevermind. Found it.
A nice change would be less emphasis on ward boundaries for those who need to attend another ward for various reasons. While we all understand the reasons for ward boundaries, there are times when people fare better spiritually and emotionally (and sometimes physically! in the case of bullying) and the concern should be to assist members to stay engaged and to be at peace in their hearts and minds. SilentDawning wrote:2. Remove the constant reminders to be good Mormons rather than good Christians
But if it was understood that being a good Mormon IS being a good Christian, “constant reminders” aren’t a problem, I think. That’s part of what goes on in the sacrament – remembering our exemplar.
Richard Bushman in “On the Road with Joseph Smith: An Author’s Diary”
“I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ. Instead of speaking triumphantly of the gospel sweeping the earth, could we think of ourselves as the leaven in the lump, standing for righteousness and serving others? I wish we had a long track record of kindness and friendship to fall back on, with less stress on proselyting. Then when the storms break around us, we would have friends to turn to. Our covenant with God is to bless the people of the earth. That should be our motto. Establishing Zion does not mean sweeping vast masses of people onto our membership records but creating a people of God dedicated to blessing others. Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve.”Reminds me of Ray’s quote from his daughter about building up the kingdom vs. establishing Zion.
Quote:
But if it was understood that being a good Mormon IS being a good Christian, “constant reminders” aren’t a problem, I think. That’s part of what goes onin the sacrament – remembering our exemplar.I agree that the Sacrament is a time to remember Jesus and try to meditate about how to be better. But this represents only a fragment of our experience. My response to this comment above is a quotation from the Biography of Ben Franklin who said regarding a particular minister he once knew:
Quote:
Tho’ I seldom attended any public worship, I had still an opinion of its propriety, and of its utility when rightly conducted, and I regularly paid my annual subscription for the support of the only Presbyterian minister or meeting we had in Philadelphia. He used to visit me sometimes as a friend, and admonish me to attend his administrations, and I was now and then prevail’d on to do so, once for five Sundays successively. Had he been in my opinion a good preacher, perhaps I might have continued, notwithstanding the occasion I had for the Sunday’s leisure in my course of study; but his discourses were chiefly either polemic arguments, or explications of the peculiar doctrines of our sect, and were all to me very dry, uninteresting, and unedifying, since not a single moral principle was inculcated or enforc’d,their aim seeming to be rather to make us Presbyterians than good citizens.At length he took for his text that verse of the fourth chapter of Philippians, “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, or of good report, if there be any virtue, or any praise, think on these things.” And I imagin’d, in a sermon on such a text, we could not miss of having some morality. But he confin’d himself to five points only, as meant by the apostle, viz.: 1. Keeping holy the Sabbath day. 2. Being diligent in reading the holy Scriptures. 3. Attending duly the publick worship. 4. Partaking of the Sacrament. 5. Paying a due respect to God’s ministers. These might be all good things; but, as they were not the kind of good things that I expected from that text, I despaired of ever meeting with them from any other, was disgusted, and attended his preaching no more. I had some years before compos’d a little Liturgy, or form of prayer, for my own private use (viz., in 1728), entitled, Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion. I return’d to the use of this, and went no more to the public assemblies. My conduct might be blameable, but I leave it, without attempting further to excuse it; my present purpose being to relate facts, and not to make apologies for them.
Benjamin Franklin. The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin (Kindle Locations 1182-1190).
I feel we are very much like this in our church. Much of what passes for good Christianity is actually good Mormonism…obeying local leaders, accepting callings when asked, not asking for releases, putting average members’ needs on the altar of administrative policy, and obeying cultural norms that have nothing to do with scripture or morality.
I now filter all that out.
I am also impressed that Ben Franklin dedicated Sunday to getting an education. And look what all that study enabled him to do. Is the time invested in church worth the 2-3 hours that could be invested in personal development? Next time you seem me reading during Sacrament, or sequestered in a room during Sunday School, or in a lawn chair in the park way behind the chapel, reading, think of Ben Franklin and this message above..
Ann wrote:
Richard Bushman in “On the Road with Joseph Smith: An Author’s Diary”“I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ. Instead of speaking triumphantly of the gospel sweeping the earth, could we think of ourselves as the leaven in the lump, standing for righteousness and serving others? I wish we had a long track record of kindness and friendship to fall back on, with less stress on proselyting. Then when the storms break around us, we would have friends to turn to. Our covenant with God is to bless the people of the earth. That should be our motto. Establishing Zion does not mean sweeping vast masses of people onto our membership records but creating a people of God dedicated to blessing others. Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve.”Ann, a thousand “thank yous” for that quote. It’s going on my board. I wish someone would cross-stitch this and frame it for me. This is my new credo.
Here are my 2cents on your suggestions.
SilentDawning wrote:
B. Portray realistic views of local and current leaders’ rather than the supernatural views talks keep emphasizing. This will prevent loss of faith when leaders invariably act like mortals with weaknesses.
Agreed! Though, I quit doing this many years ago. I respect the office and work, but I realize they are just men who have problems just like the rest of us. I teach my child this same thing so they don’t have to go through the same realization I did.SilentDawning wrote:
3. Make chapel cleaning voluntary rather than assigned and assumed.
You can say that again. I absolutely refuse to do something I’m assigned. I’ll do it for work, but I will never do it for a charity. I’ll volunteer, but if they come and say “you are assigned” this week, I just don’t go.SilentDawning wrote:
4. Stop talks that focus on church worship [glory talks about how wonderful the church is] rather than worship of God].
Hah! Thank goodness there are others who see the same thing.SilentDawning wrote:
7. Change home teaching to make it less drugerous and repetitive over your whole life.
I don’t go unless the families specifically ask me to come. I talk to them ahead of time, then see if they “really” want me to come. Usually they don’t really want HT to come.I’ve already decided that I’m going to stay, so my expectations are very low. For example, I would expect a certain amount of retrenchment on hobby horse topics in the coming Gen Conf: women, homosexuals, and possibly even intellectuals, but something in reaction to the high profile Denver Snuffer case wouldn’t surprise me (e.g. don’t write books criticizing the church). What I would like to see just because I love goodness:
1) fewer talks that preach to the choir and further puff up the self-righteous pride of the Utah / Republican / orthodox members who are so legalistic.
2) more talks about women as strong, independent, thoughtful equals, not special spirits on a pedestal who occasionally squeeze out a baby in between dusting and doing their hair.
3) no more talks that are completely clueless about dynamics between men and women like the guy who skipped lunches for a year to buy his physically disabled wife a fancy iron instead of IRONING THE DAMN SHIRTS HIMSELF.
4) no more talks EVER about modesty unless it is about not buying expensive things or trying to look better than everyone else in our “Sunday best”
5)
Quote:I would change the structure of the bishopric. It should be the Bishop, the Elders Quorum President, and the Relief Society President as his counselors. I would make the Relief Society equal with the Elders Quorum and allow them to call upon God’s priesthood again as they could before.
Never going to happen, but it’s a GREAT suggestion.
6) Give people a way to escalate issues if local leaders are abusing their position. Until there is some accountability at the bishop and SP level, rogue bishops and SPs will make life hell for lay members and attrite members they don’t like.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
6) Give people a way to escalate issues if local leaders are abusing their position. Until there is some accountability at the bishop and SP level, rogue bishops and SPs will make life hell for lay members and attrite members they don’t like.Amen!! Amen! Amen! Amen!!!
Kumahito wrote:Ann wrote:
Richard Bushman in “On the Road with Joseph Smith: An Author’s Diary”“I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ. Instead of speaking triumphantly of the gospel sweeping the earth, could we think of ourselves as the leaven in the lump, standing for righteousness and serving others? I wish we had a long track record of kindness and friendship to fall back on, with less stress on proselyting. Then when the storms break around us, we would have friends to turn to. Our covenant with God is to bless the people of the earth. That should be our motto. Establishing Zion does not mean sweeping vast masses of people onto our membership records but creating a people of God dedicated to blessing others. Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve.”Ann, a thousand “thank yous” for that quote. It’s going on my board. I wish someone would cross-stitch this and frame it for me. This is my new credo.
I love this quote, too!
I have been teaching this same principle in the context of Jacob 5. Mormonism is but one branch grafted in to the olive tree in an attempt to save it. We are only useful to the Lord insofar as our good fruit becomes contagious and impacts the rest of the tree, whether that it the rest of Christendom or the entire world.
The allegory isn’t about digging up the tree and replacing it with a new one. It’s about saving the tree by grafting in strong, healthy, sprouts that ‘remind’ the tree of it’s potential.
Hawkgrrrl wrote: Quote:3) no more talks that are completely clueless about dynamics between men and women like the guy who skipped lunches for a year to buy his physically disabled wife a fancy iron instead of IRONING THE DAMN SHIRTS HIMSELF.
This made my day. I was kind of in a crappy mood until I read this but now I feel pretty good.
Let me just add one item I would like to have changed.
1) Make Hawkgrrrl the next Bishop in my ward or at least her ward.
SilentDawning wrote:After Ray pointed out the church’s acknowledgement about JS’s indiscretions, I realized that yes, this represents a first positive step toward less whitewashing and Pollyanna-ism by the church regarding its roots. Yet, I remained unsatisfied with my church experience after this step — even with respect to whitewashing. And so, I ask,
what would have to change for me to go back to full fledged membership status (TR-holding)?…What is your list? Of what it would take to make you fully engage with the church experience? I don’t really expect them to come clean about all of the less-than-flattering history or completely overhaul their doctrines to become a relatively liberal organization like the Unitarian Universalists, United Church of Christ, or even the Community of Christ (RLDS) in my lifetime. However it would be nice if they could at least start to separate what they preach from the overbearing expectations that every active member absolutely needs to accept all of this without reservations and if not then it’s not alright. Allowing members a little more freedom and flexibility to make their own decisions and interpret some of these ideas the way that makes the most sense to them would go a long way toward fixing what is wrong with the Church without even having to openly admit that some of their fundamental truth claims are false.
For that to happen I think there would have to be some top-down changes in the way that some of the main doctrines like tithing, the WoW, testimony, chastity, one trueness, etc. are taught and enforced. Personally I think these points should be discarded or de-emphasized and not enforced in a strict an unforgiving way like we see now. As long as the majority of active Church members and leaders act like these Mormon traditions are more important than love, treating people fairly, and even basic common sense in many cases then I’m not going to have any interest in getting a temple recommend, accepting callings, or even listening to their spiel for extended periods of time. In many cases it just looks too much like an organization that is currently primarily made of, by, and for a modern day equivalent of the Pharisees (Matthew 23:23-26) for my taste.
Modify standards to strong but not over dominating. 86 the Endowment Ceremony and use the temples for sealings and baptism.
Allow for less literal interpretation of scripture and loosen authoritarian structure.
Make missions more voluntary and less like conscription. Along this line make them service missions instead of door to door salesmanship.
Loosen the definition of a full tithe and encourage member to pay what they can actually afford.
Make bishop interviews less intrusive.
Include more more women in the priesthood and leadership.
Encourage YW to go and earn productive degrees/skills/trades and actually complete the degree/training instead of getting married ASAP. Same for guys.
Create private K-12 schools at affordable rates instead of wasting money on crap.
Go back to making the WOW voluntary and start selling coffee franchises to finance the above mentioned schools and service missions.
There’s probably more, but there’s always more.
Tobin wrote:I’ll add my 2 cents:
1) I currently don’t pay tithing and see no reason to ever do so again. I do believe one should dedicate as much as you can to help the poor and needy however. I wouldn’t mind seeing tithing become a 10% guideline as a good thing to set aside 10% or more of your income for such an endeavor. In fact, if the Church were to set up transparent programs for the poor and truly needy, I’d even contribute more than 10% since I can afford to do so.
2) The Church should get out of the underwear business. It is demeaning to the faith. My view is create a bunch of decals we can attach to our undergarments to remind us of our promises. I see nothing wrong with such symbolism.
3) I see nothing wrong with a sacrament meeting once a week and asking people to share their thoughts afterwards. I would have a common meal as well after the sacrament meeting. And I would champion various meetings to do volunteer work in the community during the week. I would make all other meetings optional.
4) I would give local congregations back control of their finances and focus on making them serve their communities. Richer congregations would be expected to help more since they would have more resources to do so.
5) I would change the structure of the bishopric. It should be the Bishop, the Elders Quorum President, and the Relief Society President as his counselors. I would make the Relief Society equal with the Elders Quorum and allow them to call upon God’s priesthood again as they could before.
6) All Church education should be dedicated to helping members achieve higher professional degrees and skills. I would have programs for children such as an after school program for parents that work and to help children with their school work. For adults, I would focus more on what the scriptures say, the history in which they were written, and bring a sense of scholarship to the material presented about the Church and gospel. I would have a highly paid and trained set of professional teachers as well.
This has to be one of the most profound posts concerning the LDS church I have ever read.
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