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Jonestown documentary (warning: contains images of dead bodies) – 45 minutes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ48pREnHvI Another doc here –
Yes, I read a book on Jonestown a few years ago. It is horrifying how people can give their will and responsibility completely to another. I get how it helps them feel “safe” or at least absolved in some way from messing up their own lives, making “wrong” decisions etc. but when I step back and look at this situation I see an example of people handing over their personal agency in hopes of obtaining “salvation.” To me it sounds like the pre-earth life council proposal that was rejected. The cultural teaching that “you will be blessed for obedience even if the leader’s counsel is wrong” can sound horrendous in light of this example and MMM. Ultimately we must make our own decisions and bear the responsibility for them. I teach my children to listen to leaders, carefully consider their counsel, and follow the spirit because the responsibility for the outcome is ultimately their own. Isn’t Kool-Aid the most common drink at mormon functions? 😈 Quote:I teach my children to listen to leaders, carefully consider their counsel, and follow the spirit because the responsibility for the outcome is ultimately their own.
Amen.
At the request of my Bishop, I spoke in our most recent BYD to the youth about following the dictates of their own consciences and not letting themselves become copies. What I said was the same general message as the quote above, just phrased more broadly as one of the guiding principles of my life.
Quote:Isn’t Kool-Aid the most common drink at mormon functions?
😆 😆 Was surprised to learn of the substantial links between Harvey Milk and Jim Jones. Have to admit though, our continual insistence on follow the leader, authority and obedience is uncomfortable.
Was wondering – would JS ever gone down this route? I like to think not. Am surprised that some of the weirder fundamentalist polygamy sects have not gone suicidal.
SamBee wrote:Was wondering – would JS ever gone down this route? I like to think not.
No, I don’t think so. Evidence, quite to the contrary, is that JS was willing to be a martyr for the people. For example, the meeting minutes from the Nauvoo City Council meeting discussing the Nauvoo Expositor included this from JS: “Said he would rather die tomorrow and have the thing smashed, than live and have it go on, for it was exciting the spirit of mobocracy among the people, and bringing death and destruction upon us.”I’ve seen JS compared to JJ in anti-mormon dialog. I think that’s pretty unfair. JS was a man of significant consequence. JJ was a nutjob (my opinion). JS’s followers were not brainwashed minions. People who were followed JS and who were people of consequence themselves: Edward Partridge, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Elisa R Snow, Joseph Smith III, Heber C Kimball, Orson Pratt. But it’s hard to name a follower of JJ that ever did anything.
Well, with JS, it’s a case of what if, with JJ, it’s not even hypothetical. I appreciate the quote OON, it’s useful and encouraging.
Similarities:
* Both moved their followers to a commune in a remote location.
* Both accused of multiple sexual relationships.
* Both excellent preachers with an off beam message.
* Both had very common names – Smith and Jones…
Dissimilarities:
* JJ had a bad relationship with his father who was KKK.
* Peoples Temple was majority black. (One thing in favor of JJ was he was never racist)
* JJ had a cruel streak since childhood.
* JJ had issues with homosexual leanings.
* JJ appears to have been Marxist, poss. atheist.
* JS’ church continues.
* JS was murdered.
* JS left behind a inspiring and substantial body of literature.
Other dissimilarities: * JJ had successful links with local politicians including Moscone and Harvey Milk.
* JJ had sex with people, including men, in front of their spouses.
* JS is still well spoken of in some quarters and was loved decades later by some followers.
* JS had a successful international missionary program.
* JS did not have dry runs for mass suicide.
* Mormons were massacred by outside forces, not by their own hand.
ps Thoroughly recommend the documentaries although they are harrowing.
Quote:(One thing in favor of JJ was he was never racist)
Neither was Joseph.
I never said Joseph Smith was racist (although let’s be honest, the LDS relationship with African Americans has been less than rosy)… however, Peoples’ Temple was slightly majority black, and I don’t think the LDS has ever had a black majority, and its missionary efforts in Africa are weak compared to most other churches. On Own Now wrote:SamBee wrote:Was wondering – would JS ever gone down this route? I like to think not.
No, I don’t think so. Evidence, quite to the contrary, is that JS was willing to be a martyr for the people. For example, the meeting minutes from the Nauvoo City Council meeting discussing the Nauvoo Expositor included this from JS: “Said he would rather die tomorrow and have the thing smashed, than live and have it go on, for it was exciting the spirit of mobocracy among the people, and bringing death and destruction upon us.”I agree. I watched a Jonestown documentary a few months ago and thought that some of the events in JS’s and JJ’s lives seemed to parallel each other. But I can’t see JS instigating a mass suicide. As a side note, anyone ever wonder what the church would have been like had JS lived into his 70s or 80s? (sorry if that’s too big of a tangent for this thread)
Quote:anyone ever wonder what the church would have been like had JS lived into his 70s or 80s? (sorry if that’s too big of a tangent for this thread)
He would have produced many, many more revelations, and probably taken the church even further away from mainstream Christianity than it was. Think several more long pieces in the POGP.
His love life would have become less prominent – age does that to you.
He would have more time to alienate some people, and also make up with others.
He may well have been imprisoned for a number of years. (After all some folk wished to jail him.)
I think he may well have moved to the Rockies.
I think he would have set up sports teams and all kinds of other things that people don’t think of.
He could have embarrassed himself about ancient languages.
He would have produced proper rules for succession.
And he would have had a decent photograph taken!
Orson wrote:Yes, I read a book on Jonestown a few years ago. It is horrifying how people can give their will and responsibility completely to another. I get how it helps them feel “safe” or at least absolved in some way from messing up their own lives, making “wrong” decisions etc. but when I step back and look at this situation I see an example of people handing over their personal agency in hopes of obtaining “salvation.” To me it sounds like the pre-earth life council proposal that was rejected. The cultural teaching that “you will be blessed for obedience even if the leader’s counsel is wrong” can sound horrendous in light of this example and MMM. Ultimately we must make our own decisions and bear the responsibility for them. I teach my children to listen to leaders, carefully consider their counsel, and follow the spirit because the responsibility for the outcome is ultimately their own.
But doesn’t this idea of giving up your free agency to authority permeate our scriptures, and our culture? “Obedience is the first law of heaven”. BKP gave a talk in which he indicated that he has willingly given up his agency to God. I have sat in disciplinary councils where members of the HC asked the person who has been brough up on disciplinary charges if “they will do anything this council indicates???”.
For me, the church, most of mankind and even the evil powers of darkness want the same same thing — your agency. The difference is that the church wants you to give it up voluntarily (or with a bit of a push as evidenced in TR interviews, for example, and occasional references to pain and suffering if you don’t do what prophets say — like the 14 Fundamentals says) and Satan wants to take it from you against your will.
Again, I now put the church as a distant second on my list of agency influences. I willingly accept the responsibility that comes with it. In fact, it’s liberating.
SilentDawning wrote:BKP gave a talk in which he indicated that he has willingly given up his agency to God.
Wow! That is so Satan’s plan. Is there a chance that he used different words? Can you point me to the talk?
In my view God wants us to keep a handle on and even offer up our will to His, but we cannot do that unless we retain ownership and full rights of our agency. It MUST be our choice under our complete control without compulsion – or it defies the divine plan and ultimately gains us nothing.
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