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October 11, 2013 at 3:42 pm #208053
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GuestOctober 11, 2013 at 4:09 pm #275133Anonymous
GuestYep. Things change, even “central” things, no matter what some people say. It should be noted that we didn’t practice “infant baptism” in the classic sense of that term. Baptisms for health and baptisms for the remission of sins were seen as two very distinct practices, and we never baptized small children or infants for a remission of sins. When they were baptized, it always was for healing / health.
October 11, 2013 at 4:25 pm #275134Anonymous
GuestWhat I found fascinating was that baptisms for health for a time was the number one “ordnance” performed in the endowment house, beating out endowments and baptisms for the dead. October 11, 2013 at 4:39 pm #275135Anonymous
GuestOld-Timer wrote:It should be noted that we didn’t practice “infant baptism” in the classic sense of that term. Baptisms for health and baptisms for the remission of sins were seen as two very distinct practices, and we never baptized small children or infants for a remission of sins. When they were baptized, it always was for healing / health.
Ray, you are absolutely correct. See below from Journal of Mormon History
Quote:That baptism for health was viewed as separate and distinct
from other baptismal rituals in Nauvoo is illustrated by the scattered
references to administering the ritual to children under the age of
eight, a practice not extant in later periods. Abraham Hunsaker had
his three-year-old son baptized in the temple font in the spring of
1842, and Seymour B. Young told a 1921 general conference that his
father had baptized him for his health before he turned eight.
Bathsheba Smith wrote to her missionary husband about their
three-month-old son: “George Albert was sick last saterday and
sunday.He had quite a feavor. I was vary uneaseey about
him . . . I took him to the fount and had him baptised and sinse
then he has not hadany feavor. He is about well now.”
Furthermore, while baptism for health had become a formalized
rite for Church members, healings associated with convert
baptisms also continued, although records ofthem became less
frequent with the passage of time.
October 12, 2013 at 12:52 am #275136Anonymous
GuestI have to confess, these kinds of changes bother me when they are so very central. Are ordinances the result of the will of a small group of people at any given time? Can we distinguish between God’s will and the mistaken will or learning of men who happen to occupy positions of power? Does this rock testimony for some people? October 12, 2013 at 4:24 am #275137Anonymous
GuestHonestly, SD, if we can go from circumcision to baptism as the marker of God’s covenant people . . . This one doesn’t bother me at all. We don’t immerse in water now; we put a drop of oil on someone’s head. Both are symbolic for me, and, generally, they were / are prayers of faith. I’ve never been bothered by form, since I don’t think form has any relevance to efficacy, in and of itself. It’s the symbolism that counts, and I can see why baptism for health had great symbolism for the people at that time. Also, since it didn’t have any impact on how baptism for the remission of sins was seen, I really don’t see it as opposed to or even changing that particular ordinance. I just see it as using the same outward form for a totally different purpose – and I’m totally cool with that.
October 12, 2013 at 5:15 am #275138Anonymous
GuestI know…I guess that in the last few years I’ve stopped believing that everything everyone tells us to do is inspired, that ordinances are inpisred or that they are even necessary for salvation (not sure how I feel about it). There is no clear statement about what is direct inspiration the Christ told us to do, and what is mere opinion when leaders make announcements, so I tend to look at most things I hear now as the expression of the will of the people in a position to make decisions at the time. So, big changes in ordinances seem like another whim to me. I’m OK if other people see it differently though.
October 16, 2013 at 4:08 am #275139Anonymous
GuestOld-Timer wrote:Honestly, SD, if we can go from circumcision to baptism as the marker of God’s covenant people . . .
That may be the most epic line in the history of the internet! (Okay, maybe that’s a bit of hyperbole)
There are many, many reasons I prefer the NT gospel to the OT gospel. Right up near the top of the list is the switch from cutting off the foreskin (ouch!) to taking a bath (aaahhh). Great analogy, Ray!
October 16, 2013 at 2:36 pm #275140Anonymous
GuestThis makes sense as baptism appears to derive from Jewish purification rituals… but baptizing babies?! October 16, 2013 at 4:01 pm #275141Anonymous
GuestThere is direct record, I think, of only one baby (or a very small number) – and that baby was very sick at the time. Remember, this was for health and healing, so it would make sense to use it in the case of serious sickness, regardless of age. Even given that, however, the fact that there is no record of extensive practice with babies or even young children indicates that, generally, the people viewed it as intended for those already “cleansed” by baptism for the remission of sins. That is harder to pin down objectively, since what is assumed as obvious often isn’t discussed or recorded (which has many other ramifications when trying to understand people more fully), but I think it’s accurate to say it that way. October 16, 2013 at 6:08 pm #275142Anonymous
GuestSilentDawning wrote:I know…I guess that in the last few years I’ve stopped believing that everything everyone tells us to do is inspired, that ordinances are inspired or that they are even necessary for salvation (not sure how I feel about it). There is no clear statement about what is direct inspiration the Christ told us to do, and what is mere opinion when leaders make announcements, so I tend to look at most things I hear now as the expression of the will of the people in a position to make decisions at the time.
So, big changes in ordinances seem like another whim to me. I’m OK if other people see it differently though.
I agree SD. And I think in Joseph’s time, there was such a Restorationist movement, that having it restored from Angelic beings meant it was exactly as it should be and exactly as it was back throughout history. People had faith in that.But when the physical needs change, then we fall back on symbolic meaning of the things that were instituted at one time, and let go of the physical need to keep it exactly the same. And then things change, and I like most of the changes…as the earlier posts stated.
As Elder Holland stated in Conference:
Quote:If things continue to be debilitating, seek the advice of reputable people with certified training, professional skills, and good values. Be honest with them about your history and your struggles. Prayerfully and responsibly consider the counsel they give and the solutions they prescribe. If you had appendicitis, God would expect you to seek a priesthood blessing
andget the best medical care available. So too with emotional disorders. Our Father in Heaven expects us to use all of the marvelous gifts He has provided in this glorious dispensation.
What he says about getting help for emotional disorders, applies to other medical help such as appendicitis or if babies need to be washed clean or healed. If we have better ways to do things…I choose to do what is best for me and my family.Things change. Including the laws and ordinances of the gospel, and especially the physical outward expressions of them.
October 16, 2013 at 7:26 pm #275143Anonymous
GuestI know a man who is from South America. He and most of the people he knew growing up were poor. I was amazed once when he told me about all of the healing blessings in which he had participated throughout his life. A few were jaw-dropping, but many were for conditions that are commonplace to us – things for which we wouldn’t think of asking for a blessing. Initially, I was a bit bemused and almost dismissive of how “commonly” they relied on blessings, and I asked him why it was so commonplace and not more special.
His response humbled me, but it also opened my eyes to my own assumptions and what I take for granted. He said:
“You can take some aspirin or go to a doctor and get a prescription. Your health insurance makes it cost next to nothing. We didn’t have that option.
God was our only physician, so we went to him.” I will never stop using the resources I have available to me, but I also will not ridicule or even question people who go / went to God in their lack of things I take for granted. I hope I can take advantage of ALL of my resources, and I hope that never stops including God – even if that varies in degree from others on either side of the spectrum from me.
October 16, 2013 at 10:59 pm #275144Anonymous
GuestOld-Timer wrote:I know a man who is from South America. He and most of the people he knew growing up were poor.
I was amazed once when he told me about all of the healing blessings in which he had participated throughout his life. A few were jaw-dropping, but many were for conditions that are commonplace to us – things for which we wouldn’t think of asking for a blessing. Initially, I was a bit bemused and almost dismissive of how “commonly” they relied on blessings, and I asked him why it was so commonplace and not more special.
His response humbled me, but it also opened my eyes to my own assumptions and what I take for granted. He said:
“You can take some aspirin or go to a doctor and get a prescription. Your health insurance makes it cost next to nothing. We didn’t have that option.
God was our only physician, so we went to him.” I will never stop using the resources I have available to me, but I also will not ridicule or even question people who go / went to God in their lack of things I take for granted. I hope I can take advantage of ALL of my resources, and I hope that never stops including God – even if that varies in degree from others on either side of the spectrum from me.
I think that’s a touching story…
October 18, 2013 at 7:52 pm #275145Anonymous
GuestI thought US health insurance was horrifically expensive? -
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