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  • #208146
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I doubted my doubts and look where it took me. You doubt and dig deeper.

    #276223
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Ain’t that the truth. The more I doubt the more I research and thus the more I doubt. My faith is getting weaker but I find my ability to deal with it has become stronger in many ways. Maybe I just don’t care that much anymore and tried of trying to fake it. I was talking to a friend who his about 4 months into his faith crisis and he is at the very angry stage and would be happy to see the church go down in flames and I was the one encouraging him to keep it together for a little longer and see if the church can be a little more honest about its history.

    #276224
    Anonymous
    Guest

    church0333 wrote:

    My faith is getting weaker but I find my ability to deal with it has become stronger in many ways.

    Seems like there is a word for that ability, but I can’t think of what it is right now. It’s very comforting, though, and functions like my faith used to. Maybe it’s serenity.

    #276225
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I loved that he said “doubt your doubts” not “ignore your doubts.” Despite the fact that it’s been hi-jacked as a ‘mormon meme’ I smile a little when I see so many people sharing what is, essentially, an acceptance that there will be doubts that legitimately challenge your faith. Yes, of course we should doubt them first. Challenge them, study them, look to the original sources in context. At the end of that, there are some doubts that I’ve set aside and decided there’s not enough evidence to have them affect my faith. But there are several others that still stand and do challenge my faith, even after I doubted them.

    #276226
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Pres. Uchtdorf:

    Quote:

    Some might ask, “But what about my doubts?”

    It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith—even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true.

    Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. We must never allow doubt to hold us prisoner and keep us from the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    There is some context to “doubt your doubts.” The first paragraph talks about how natural it is to have questions, how there are few members who have not had questions, and how one purpose of the church is to nurture faith. It concludes with the statement about faith being hope for things that are true but not seen. The word faith has several related definitions which I believe can be summed up as a “firm belief” especially related to a religious belief. The word hope does not indicate a knowledge, it indicates a desire or perhaps a desire with an expectation. I think that last sentence in the first paragraph can be modified to “Firm belief is a desire for things which are not seen but which are true” without changing its meaning.

    The second paragraph starts with the word “Therefore.” Therefore is a word used to indicate a conclusion is following. It means “for that reason” or “because of this.” The second paragraph, then, really starts with “because of this”…first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. I think that sentence was crafted very carefully and purposely. Pres. Uchtdorf could have simply said “therefore, doubt your doubts.” But he didn’t leave it at that, he included “before your doubt your faith.” Doubt means to feel uncertain about. So now we have a sentence that says “Because questions are natural, there are few members who have not had questions, and the church is here to nurture firm belief; and because firm belief is a desire for things which are not seen but are true, feel uncertain about your feelings of uncertainty before you feel uncertain about your firm beliefs.” I think before is a key word in that sentence, both the original and the revised. Going back to the first paragraph, Pres. Uchtdorf mentioned how the “acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding.” At no time has Pres. Uchtdorf indicated it is wrong to question or doubt, and in fact honest questions often lead to very strong (indicated by the oak) understanding. I think Pres. Uchtdorf did mean for us to question our doubts, to feel uncertain about our uncertainties, but after we have done that, after we have honestly inquired about our uncertainties, then we are in a position to feel uncertain about and honestly question our firm beliefs.

    I think Pres. Uchtdorf’s hope is that after questioning our doubts then questioning our faith we will develop that “mighty oak of understanding” which can include both doubt and faith because (yes, there’s more) we shouldn’t let feelings of uncertainty keep us from “the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” When the scriptures speak of faith, they generally mean specific faith in Jesus Christ as referenced here by Pres. Uchtdorf. Many of us – almost every member according to Pres. Uchtdorf – have or have had questions or feelings of uncertainty about some aspects of the church. Usually those things are some question or doubt about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, or wrongs committed by church leaders past or present among other things. We can’t let our feelings of uncertainty keep us (hold us prisoner) from the love, peace and blessings that come from a firm belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    (Edited to fix typos)

    #276227
    Anonymous
    Guest

    DarkJedi wrote:

    Pres. Uchtdorf:

    Quote:

    Some might ask, “But what about my doubts?”

    It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith—even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true.

    Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. We must never allow doubt to hold us prisoner and keep us from the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    There is some context to “doubt your doubt.” The first paragraph talks about how natural it is to have questions how there are few members who have not had questions, and how one purpose of the church is to nurture faith. It concludes with the statement about faith being hope for things that are true but not seen. The word faith has several related definitions which I believe can be summed up as a “firm belief” especially related to a religious belief. The word hope does not indicate a knowledge, it indicates a desire or perhaps a desire with an expectation. I think that last sentence in the first paragraph can be modified to “Firm belief is a desire for things which are not seen but which are true” without changing its meaning.

    The second paragraph starts with the word “Therefore.” Therefore is a word used to indicate a conclusion is following. It means “for that reason” or “because of this.” The second paragraph, then, really starts with “because of this”…first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. I think that sentence was crafted very carefully and purposely. Pres. Uchtdorf could have simply said “therefore, doubt your doubts.” But he didn’t leave it at that, he included “before your doubt your faith.” Doubt means to feel uncertain about. So now we have a sentence that says “Because questions are natural, there are few members who have not had questions, and the church is here to nurture firm belief; and because firm belief is a desire for things which are not seen but are true, feel uncertain about your feelings of uncertainty before[i/] you feel uncertain about your firm beliefs.” I think before is a key word in that sentence, both the original and the revised. Going back to the first paragraph, Pres. Uchtdorf mentioned how the “acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding.” At no time has pres. Uchtdorf indicated it is wrong to question or doubt, and in fact honest questions often lead to very strong (indicated by the oak) understanding. I think Pres. Uchtdorf did mean for us to question our doubts, to feel uncertain about our uncertainties, but after we have done that, after we have honestly inquired about our uncertainties, then we are in a position to feel uncertain about our firm beliefs.

    I think Pres. Uchtdorf’s hope is that after questioning our doubts then questioning our faith we will develop that “mighty oak of understanding” which can include both doubt and faith because (yes, there’s more) we shouldn’t let feelings of uncertainty keep us from “the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” When the scriptures speak of faith, they generally mean specific faith in Jesus Christ as referenced here by Pres. Uchtdorf. Many of us – almost every member according to Pres. Uchtdorf – have or have had questions or feelings of uncertainty about some aspects of the church. Usually those things are some question or doubt about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, or wrongs committed by church leaders past or present among other things. We can’t let our feelings of uncertainty keep us (hold us prisoner) from the love, peace and blessings that come from a firm belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Really excellent analysis Dark Jedi. Really appreciate that perspective. If we have a lesson on this topic I might have to bookmark this comment to use in the class.

    #276228
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quite a Buddhist idea. Doubt doubt. If you meet the Buddha kill him.

    Of course, a lot of folk will think it is a command to be more conservative whereas, to me, it means test everything, especially your assumptions.

    #276229
    Anonymous
    Guest

    mackay11 wrote:

    Really excellent analysis Dark Jedi. Really appreciate that perspective. If we have a lesson on this topic I might have to bookmark this comment to use in the class.

    I agree! Given this analysis I might rephrase this catchphrase as “Give faith the benefit of the doubt.” I hope to do this. In areas of uncertainty – I hold open the possibility of faith. In areas where my faith makes me a better person, I might even choose the position of faith over a more logical conclusion – simply for the positive net effect of faith in my life. But this faith I speak of is my personal faith, and is not now directly connected with the COJCOLDS.

    #276230
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Excellent, DJ. Truly excellent analysis.

    #276231
    Anonymous
    Guest

    What all the above said. You were able to put my feelings into words.

    #276232
    Anonymous
    Guest

    It hit me like a ton of bricks tonight how beautifully Elder Uchtdorf’s statement:

    Quote:

    first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith


    parallels Fowler’s stages of faith. Stage 3 really is a “doubt your doubts” stage. Many people, as has been mentioned above, won’t need to move past that stage. They’ll be perfectly content in stage 3. However, many of us will not be spiritually content in this stage and will move on to the “doubt your faith” stage (stage 4). Does anyone else find this correlation strangely coincidental?

    #276233
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thoreau wrote:

    I doubted my doubts and look where it took me. You doubt and dig deeper.


    In my opinion this is the big mistake that atheists make.

    By refraining from doubting even one’s own doubts the error of bias is derived.

    True scientific objectivity requires eliminating all errors of reasoning including bias.

    #276234
    Anonymous
    Guest

    peteolcott wrote:

    Thoreau wrote:

    I doubted my doubts and look where it took me. You doubt and dig deeper.


    In my opinion this is the big mistake that atheists make.

    By refraining from doubting even one’s own doubts the error of bias is derived.

    True scientific objectivity requires eliminating all errors of reasoning including bias.

    I don’t disagree with you Pete. I’m just not sure that “true scientific objectivity” is possible or even desirable for me. I live in a world of assumptions. Some or even many of my assumptions are wrong. In the final analysis, I don’t think the measure of my life depends on me getting all the right answers.

    #276235
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Roy wrote:

    peteolcott wrote:

    Thoreau wrote:

    I doubted my doubts and look where it took me. You doubt and dig deeper.


    In my opinion this is the big mistake that atheists make.

    By refraining from doubting even one’s own doubts the error of bias is derived.

    True scientific objectivity requires eliminating all errors of reasoning including bias.

    I don’t disagree with you Pete. I’m just not sure that “true scientific objectivity” is possible or even desirable for me. I live in a world of assumptions. Some or even many of my assumptions are wrong. In the final analysis, I don’t think the measure of my life depends on me getting all the right answers.

    You have a good point with that. That is the reason why I keep two distinct concepts separately:

    a) Right: Whatever maximizes joy

    b) Correct: Consistent with the way things actually are

    I may be better to aim for

    than to aim for [Correct].

    #276236
    Anonymous
    Guest

    peteolcott wrote:

    You have a good point with that. That is the reason why I keep two distinct concepts separately:

    a) Right: Whatever maximizes joy

    b) Correct: Consistent with the way things actually are

    I may be better to aim for

    than to aim for [Correct].

    Yeah, I would say that I strive for for what is right and don’t worry too much about sweating correctness in spiritual matters. That is just my preference where at this point in my journey.

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