Does God Exempt Some Even Though Church Leaders Don’t?

I think the answer to your last question, here and even at the highest levels of the Church, is a resounding, “No.” Pres. Uchtdorf said it explicitly in his Saturday morning talk in General Conference. Leaders are and have been wrong about things – even important things. I also think our scriptures, theology and scriptures show that God “exempts” people from various things for various reasons.

As for the question about tithing, we had another thread about that exact question a little while ago. I’ll try to find it. The summary: It’s up to you to declare your status – but not paying any tithing makes it hard / impossible to answer that temple recommend question with an honest, “Yes.” If you give 10% to charity, especially LDS Philanthropies, you could say honestly, “I tithe faithfully” (and I would have no problem with that phrasing), but we all know that’s not what the question means. I am fine answering with a simple “yes” or “no” to the questions, even if you interpret them differently than the person asking the question (since the questions are asked to you for you to answer for yourself), but this is one where you would have to be comfortable with an answer that well over 90% of the interviewers would not accept if you explained it to them.

That’s your call. It’s not mine. If it was me in your situation, I probably could feel good about the answer I gave above, but I’m very secure in my faith and my personal understanding, so you have to decide for yourself.

I suppose there really is no answer to this question – at least if by answer we mean a black and white solution. I guess I knew this even when I posed the question. Perhaps introduced the discussion would be more accurate. But I do like to get the perspective of other people, so all your answers are much appreciated. I’d never say any of this to a bishop either. Or to pretty much anyone in my family. Thankfully, I have a brother who will think objectively about the church and struggles much as I do, so I can talk to somebody. If I were to venture a guess, I’d say our condition in the next life will be based on our hearts, and not our actions. The Atonement took care of the consequences of our actions. I’m not saying actions don’t matter – but I think that a person with a pure heart will eventually overcome negative actions if given enough time – another thing provided to us in spades by the Atonement. For things that really matter, I feel quite certain that the legitimately well-meaning soul will not be subject to the consequences of an honest mistake. Not saying that a well-meaning person won’t have consequences in life, but for things of truly eternal significance, I think they are covered.

Now, am I REALLY well-meaning? The honest answer is sometimes yes I am, and sometimes no I’m not. I think Faust said once that we are often not as guiltless as we think we are when trials come up.

When questions similar to this are posed, I think they are really just asking – even pleading – for acceptance. And I believe it’s that unwillingness to accept any straying from the established doctrine that makes the haters of the church hate it so vehemently. You either come to church and pretty quickly adhere to the rules, or you leave.

So what is more important? The rules, or the people? Like everything, it’s a balancing act. You can’t completely dismiss the rules, but they can’t trump everything else. I’m glad we have someone perfect who will work it all out.

Yes.

So what is more important? The rules, or the people?

That question is easily answered if you know your point of reference:

For the health and vitality of the organization – the rules.

For the health and vitality of the members – the people.

The members do need the organization to fill the role of a framework …so both do have a place, but I would lean more heavily on defending individuals.

I think the organization is ALWAYS there to serve the individual and the people. Period. The members are more important than the organization, and when the two can no longer exist, the organization needs to either go away, or reform.

“God made the sabbath for man. He did not make man for the sabbath.”

Yes Cwald, but the problem is no organization can simultaneously fill all the needs of all the different people. It would self-destruct in trying.

All organizations are abusive so some individuals, that is the nature of the beast. To completely eradicate that would be to end all organizations…

You know, you are right. Perhaps I’ve evolved into an Anarchists? Nyle from Mormon Expression had it right all along.

So what is more important? The rules, or the people? Like everything, it’s a balancing act. You can’t completely dismiss the rules, but they can’t trump everything else.

Tolle’s interpretation of Rules vs. People really resonates with me. Below I highlighted a passage I love from A New Earth:

There is only one absolute Truth, and all other truths emanate from it. When you find that Truth, your actions will be in alignment with it. Human action can reflect the Truth, or it can reflect illusion. Can the Truth be put into words? Yes, but the words are, of course, not it. They only point to it.

The Truth is inseparable from who you are. Yes, you are the Truth. If you look for it elsewhere, you will be deceived every time. The very Being that you are is Truth. Jesus tried to convey that when he said, “I am the way and the truth and the life.” These words uttered by Jesus are one of the most powerful and direct pointers to the Truth, if understood correctly. If misinterpreted, however, they become a great obstacle. Jesus speaks of the innermost I Am, the essence identity of every man and woman, every life-form, in fact. He speaks of the life that you are. Some Christian mystics have called it the Christ within; Buddhists call it your Buddha nature; for Hindus, it is Atman, the indwelling God. When you are in touch with that dimension within yourself – and being in touch with it is your natural state, not some miraculous achievement – all your actions and relationships will reflect the oneness with all life that you sense deep within. This is love. Laws, commandments, rules, and regulations are necessary for those who are cut off from who they are, the Truth within. They prevent the worst excesses of the ego, and often they don’t even do that. “Love and do what you will,” said St. Augustine. Words cannot get much closer to the Truth than that.

So to paraphrase, until the world is rid of the individual and collective ego, we’ll always have rules, but the rules are not why we are here. They are merely tools to combat the ego. The problem arises when we let the rules, which will never be perfect and never account for every variable in life, begin to separate us from the great truth within, which is ultimately love.

I think I need to treat the church like I should treat a person. To think of them as a imperfect person who occasionally manipulates, is sometimes good, and other times not so good. Like me, they are not perfect. I tend to be harder on them, because I don’t view them as a person. Certain, it’s a bit different – because I can normally leave a relationship that has become damaging – and still feel good about myself. But in the church, that’s harder to do. The church stands pretty firmly on the point that everyone will be happier and a better person when they’re in the church. And they cram that idea into children from the day you are born until they day you die. The idea of all being happier in the church I’m not convinced is totally true. If the church is true in the way the church defines being true, I guess everyone will be happier in it – eventually. But I know lots of people I’d never share the church with – just because I know they’d go from thinking they were a good coffee drinker living with their boy/girlfriend, who shops and fishes on Sunday to thinking they were a terrible person. OK – so to be honest, I don’t share the church with anyone – I only try to tell them about how kind and gentle and loving God is – or try to – but again I’m not a good example of what I am saying.

I guess it takes a pretty incredibly stable level of confidence in your decisions in order to consistently exist around a influence that hurts you without hating. That said, most things that hurt like heck are good for you To be honest, I’m not there yet. But, I can at least now identify my self worth and my adherence to church rules as being independent – even if one still affects the other pretty frequently.

I figure that’s why God put me in the church. I’ve probably learned lessons from my pain in the church I wouldn’t have learned any other way.