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I can’t see the forest for the trees. Always felt that way. It feels like 25% worship and 75% activity. Your statement is a bit cryptic Kipper, but I think I agree with you. I think our church services mention Jesus Christ and the core of the gospel way too little – and I think outsiders notice. Kipper wrote:I can’t see the forest for the trees. Always felt that way. It feels like 25% worship and 75% activity.
I don’t even know that I would go with 25% worship. We are just not that good at worship. Yesterday in SM I was thinking about our current prayer position of folded arms. It certainly isn’t scriptural. In the scriptures figures in the act of worship either have their arms outstretched or are prostrate. I wondered if the folded arms were a tactic originally employed in the primary to get the kids to stop poking each other. Are we even supposed to worship Jesus? I’m not sure. From observation, I wonder if we are worshipping HF in the name of Jesus.
On the positive side this can help combat accusations that we worship JS. We don’t exactly do a great job of “worship” for anybody.
I believe that the common reasoning for being so church and activity focused is that many suppose that the church IS the representation of Christ – the literal fulfillment of His kingdom on earth.
I think the emphasis on doing and becoming over saying and “merely” believing accounts for this – and, honestly, I’m a bit torn on the issue. I would love more, deeper worship – but I don’t want to lose the pragmatic nature of doing and becoming. I try to move toward the middle more than to either extreme, but that probably won’t surprise anyone here.
My reply to this is lost in the ethernet. I have a dream way of experiencing church, your invited to attend my dream church if you want, it would still be called TCoJCoLDS, it would still have the same callings, authority etc. But Sunday meetings would be different. Sacrament meeting would culminate with the administration of the bread and water. Before it, the meeting – the talks, the hymns, etc, would be all Christ focused. There are 5 books of scripture to begin with – The 4 synoptic gospels and 3rd Nephi. You could select topics from there for years. Instead of endless talks, there would be worship music time and quiet reflection time.
The second hour – and there will only be 2 hours – would be for specific classes, service projects, and respectful mingling.
To me this embodies Christ’s scriptural example for Sabbath Day efforts. He himself attended Synagogue, expounded scripture, then went with his community (disciples) out to serve. They got in trouble for eating corn on the way back from serving.
Now – Since I know my dream may be a ways off, I have taken to making my church experience Christ centered. I take scriptures, books, and journals to assist me. I read through hymns that touch Him and do my best to carry a spirit of Christ into my interactions with my ward members. I can’t fix policy, culture or doctrine – but I can live by the first 2 great commandments – when I do that I find myself freed from the forest and the trees.
mom3 wrote:Sacrament meeting would culminate with the administration of the bread and water.
mom3 – I’ve thought about this, too. I wonder what the pros and cons are of changing the order and whether it’s been considered.
I about came out of my skin yesterday when we sang “O Ye Mountains High” for an opening hymn. Nothin’ like “Thy deliv’rance is nigh; thy oppressors shall die” to set a worshipful tone.
:thumbdown: And first Sunday in December to boot. Christmas, anyone??? Sorry for the snit.Ann wrote:mom3 wrote:Sacrament meeting would culminate with the administration of the bread and water.
mom3 – I’ve thought about this, too. I wonder what the pros and cons are of changing the order and whether it’s been considered.
I about came out of my skin yesterday when we sang “O Ye Mountains High” for an opening hymn. Nothin’ like “Thy deliv’rance is nigh; thy oppressors shall die” to set a worshipful tone.
:thumbdown: And first Sunday in December to boot. Christmas, anyone??? Sorry for the snit.Urgh. Any ward that doesn’t have all hymns except the sacrament hymn as carols for all of December should have the music director tied to a Christmas tree with a “Scrooge/Grinch” sign round their neck.
My recollection is that BRMcC stated that public worship for us was the preaching and the studying in classes. it is a big difference from other churches and is something you just get used to or find a substitute for. I likely Episcopalian services for the liturgy and ritual and for the feeling of worship. As far as folded arms that’s universal way to get kid’s to be reverent. Martin Luther invented the pretzel as a way to remind them on how to act in church. (interesting factoid)
Quote:Sacrament meeting would culminate with the administration of the bread and water. Before it, the meeting – the talks, the hymns, etc, would be all Christ focused.
I love this structure and have seen its benefit on a couple of occasions. If I had my way, this is exactly how I would organize it.
About my original post, if I detailed my opinion or thoughts on this it would be way too long but this is how I would have summarized it. Fortunately my point was not lost. I understand that for most members this is all right, in fact it is a preferred life style and there is plenty of worship and gospel discussion in Sunday School. The life style seems to be why most enjoy church…rubbing shoulders, planning meetings, socializing…it’s all good but for me there’s more to life. For me the church is stifling.
:silent: I’m really upset today after tithing settlement last night.
How’s that for another cryptic summary.
Our church is church-centered. We have a lot about Christ in our theology etcetera, but the organization cares deeply about itself…often at the expense of the members and even Christ-centeredness, in my view. But we have the concept of structure, culture and streamlining licked. Awesome subject! I agree with many of these comments!
Folding arms was nothing I considered unusual until our non-member family asked us about it. Talk about being stumped. I had no idea.
Our ward’s SM talks are ALL based on general conference reports…we are reteaching what was just taught…over yet another pulpit. Members aren’t asked to research a topic and learn anything new. We are asked to regurgitate something that has already been hashed out recently. Ugh.
I would like a SM where we could just sit and listen to “Music and the Spoken word” or just music!
As for the Savior going out into the community…I would like to do that!! But, what do we do on Sundays? We go to church, slog home, eat lunch and then sleep the day away.
We visited a local community church for a Christmas program and as we waited in line, I read their (beautiful) bulletin board with envy. Each Sunday a group of their members gather on Sunday after church to visit the homeless “park” downtown. They sometimes bring lunch…sometimes they just sit and chat with the people. It’s a ministry of love and the photos showed some happy faces.
Instead of a half thrown together primary activity once every few years, why not open our doors in the summer time for a VBS? I used to take my children to VBS at some churches when they were younger. The set up for those events was amazing. *I* enjoyed myself. One year stood out to me b/c the program was taking donations to help a “city” of teens who escaped abusive homes and needed a place to live but were too old for the welfare system. We were assured that 100% of donations would go to this city…I happily gave what was in my wallet (all of $5). Why don’t we do things like that?
Ah well…maybe we are “comfortable” with how things work b/c that’s all we’ve known…and no one really wants to “work” at church attendance, ya know?
As for tithing settlement…we were just “assigned” a time to go. lol. How’s that for free agency?
:wtf: QuestionAbound wrote:Instead of a half thrown together primary activity once every few years, why not open our doors in the summer time for a VBS? I used to take my children to VBS at some churches when they were younger. The set up for those events was amazing. *I* enjoyed myself. One year stood out to me b/c the program was taking donations to help a “city” of teens who escaped abusive homes and needed a place to live but were too old for the welfare system. We were assured that 100% of donations would go to this city…I happily gave what was in my wallet (all of $5). Why don’t we do things like that?
Ah well…maybe we are “comfortable” with how things work b/c that’s all we’ve known…and no one really wants to “work” at church attendance, ya know?
I don’t know about others here but I am very cynical about service projects in the church. It has been my experience that planned service projects are the least attended activities in the ward. It is usually the same 10 members that show up and do most of them. (This goes all the way back to when I was a kid.) The unplanned service projects are usually very well attended. Go figure.
As for doing service on Sunday’s, it must not be against the handbook because irregularly over the course of my life (2-3 times), I have been in wards where we were told to go home put on our work clothes after SM and meet at this address to service… Yes it was usually a ward member but it has happened.
QuestionAbound wrote:Instead of a half thrown together primary activity once every few years, why not open our doors in the summer time for a VBS? I used to take my children to VBS at some churches when they were younger. The set up for those events was amazing. *I* enjoyed myself. One year stood out to me b/c the program was taking donations to help a “city” of teens who escaped abusive homes and needed a place to live but were too old for the welfare system. We were assured that 100% of donations would go to this city…I happily gave what was in my wallet (all of $5). Why don’t we do things like that?
Yesterday morning I took the kids to the First Christian Church for the “kid’s Christmas shopping day.” They had items donated and the kids would pick two items to be gift wrapped for other family members. Our kids loved picking things out to give. They had other booths for cookie decorating, ornament making, and card making. Then we decorated boxes that are to be filled with food for the local homeless shelter.
At about 10 I went to the Bethel Assembly of God church for the kid’s clothing swap. Usually you bring in clothes that don’t fit your kids any more and exchange them for other clothes. Yesterday they were doing a kid’s toy swap (it is December after all). So I brought in some old toys and exchanged them for different used toys. It was good not only to get some new stuff but to see some kids faces light up when they saw some of the stuff that I had brought to exchange (Batman figures).
In the evening we went to the First Church of God for the “One Starry Night: Bethlehem experience.” Pastor Rick greeted us at the door. He remembered my name even though it has been months since we have last visited their church. He said in his old timey way “Welcome friend Roy, blessings be upon you and your family.” He is one of the most genuine men I know. They had converted the downstairs of the church into a marketplace with different booths and actors.
Admittedly yesterday was unusually busy. These are all good, sincere, and loving people. If I were too ever leave the LDS church I don’t think I could make up my mind on which should be my new home church.
:thumbup: I could go on and on complaining about how primary is handled in my ward, but why bother? I supplement my participation with outside sources. My heart swells with connection to an ever increasing circle of Heavenly Father’s children. Some of those people are even LDS.
Sounds like a fun day Roy! Thanks for those experiences in the community!
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