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I have a TBM friend. He is very disciplined in many aspects of life. Last night we are talking about our children, and I commented on how my daughter is active, goes to the temple, achieved her YW medallion at 14, and is very spiritual – in spite of my own reservations about the church. How she knows my current orientation in the church, disagrees with my non-payment of tithing and non-TR-holding status, but that we still have spiritual experiences together. And that given my life’s experiences in the church, my family is lucky I even go at all.
He confides that his two sons — 19 and 16, want absolutely nothing to do with the church. I ask for how long, and he says “two years”. He indicates one reason is his oldest son didn’t like being pushed to attend seminary early in the morning. It sounds like the oldest son might have been forced. Strange that my TBM friend never shared these facts with me until now, as we talk about everything in detail– or so I thought.
I’m a bit confused. Here I don’t hold FHE very often, essentially teach principles that neutralize harmful church culture when we DO hold it, and am very liberal in how we interpret commandments like sabbath day, for example. We rarely read the scriptures, although my daughter reads them on her own quite a bit. However, we attend church regularly and I have a close relationship with my kids.
I reflected on my daughter — how she expressed dislike for early morning seminary too — in the beginning. I handled it by letting her know it was her choice whether she attended. Commented that pros were she would be less tired, family would have less driving stress. Cons were that she might not be able to serve in certain foreign missions, and might regret that she never graduated or learned the gospel if she decides to serve a mission. She took a day and decided she would go — on her own.
What do you make of this? It seems there is much more than “the family program of the church”. In fact, it sounds as if part of the reason his kids are inactive is because he forced them to do a lot of boring things they did not want to do (like attend Seminary, read scriptures every night, etcetera). Is it possible that overly disciplined parents produce children who don’t buy into the whole church experience and want freedom from it ASAP? Have any of you experienced this — where families with strong gospel habits produce children who want very little to do with the church as soon as they come of age?
i realize this might simply be a character issue — my daughter is just a spiritual kid, and his sons may simply not be that way yet, but I wonder if parents give children the power to make these decisions — on their own — might see more commitment in the long run than parents who force their kids, or use gospel “shoulds” like we are used to hearing in the church.
I don’t think there is a clear cut, universal answer. I’ve seen active kids come from all kinds of families and inactive kids come from all kinds of families. If there was an easy answer, it would be understood by now. I do think regular, orthoprax activity is a key indicator of immediate activity among kids, but college, especially outside of the Mormon bubble, tends to strengthen each person’s faith orientation, either toward activity or away from it. I also think compulsion is a key indicator of inactivity – but I think it doesn’t start for most people until around the age we start calling our kids Young Men and Young Women. I don’t think real compulsion can exist until someone is old enough to want something different for reasons s/he can articulate independently and reasonably.
Can you define “clear orthoprax activity” in this context Ray? I’m curious what you mean. Though kids are unpredictable, I don’t think faithful, active living vs. inactive living is the whole issue. You help your daughter understand the outcomes of her decisions without bias and grant her the responsibility to decide fore herself. Your friend sounds like he never trusted them to make those decisions. My house was a mix of both. Going to church was never an option, but certain things were, like going to events on Sundays. My dad would tell me it was my decision, but not in a flippant way. We both knew what was riding on the result. I think no matter if your kids are active or not, you are succeeding in teaching them to make well thought out decisions. Some kids still won’t respond to that, but hey, parents can only do so much.
I think living at least the general outline of a Mormon life has a huge impact, generally speaking, on foundational things – even though there are plenty of exceptions, which is why I say generally speaking. I think time together, as long as that time is happy time, almost no matter the nature of what happens during that time, has a huge impact on foundational things. I think less time but happy time is more impactful in a positive way than more time but unhappy, stressful time. I think balance is one of the key indicators of long term stability and happiness, and there are lots of things that can mess with balance – from psychological issues to too much time away for work and/or church meetings and activities to overly-strict rules that come across as too tightly constraining to lots of other things. I see patterns, but I don’t see formulas. For more about that, read my summary of something Heber or Orson or someone else here said a while ago:
“
The Danger of Seeing Patterns As Formulas” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-danger-of-seeing-patterns-as.html If the church was sensible, seminary would be held at weekends and after school… but instead they do the early morning thing even though most kids can barely get up for regular school. My first home teacher was a hardcore TBM, bullied me about not wearing white shirts, told me off for asking questions during HT… he’s a former bishop of the ward. All his kids are AWOL. Wasn’t surprised.
SamBee wrote:If the church was sensible, seminary would be held at weekends and after school… but instead they do the early morning thing even though most kids can barely get up for regular school.
My first home teacher was a hardcore TBM, bullied me about not wearing white shirts, told me off for asking questions during HT… he’s a former bishop of the ward. All his kids are AWOL. Wasn’t surprised.
I agree that early morning seminary is a great challenge for kids and parents. Holding it after school and/or weekends would only create other issues, however. A weeknight or weekend program would keep my kids from attending mainly because of sports. An online version, however, may be a better option and I know there are pilots out there. The church slowly embraces technology, this is one they need to embrace. (DJ steps off the soap box.)
The online seminary program is very good for an online program. Some kids would thrive who don’t do well in a traditional early morning program, but other kids need the live interaction and would flounder in an online program. I’d like to have both available, no pressure either way, and allow parents and students to choose which one they want to do. I still find it hard waking up, but in my teens it was murder. Occasionally I would get up early to do homework too. Also impractical, since I would have had to travel twenty or forty miles to get to it each morning, and I boarded at school for a while.
On another point, a widow here is quite bitter about how she wasn’t helped out with a loan for funeral costs. Her husband paid full tithes for about fifty years. As a result, the adult children are angry at the church. The son paid his mother the loan, and complained about how rich the church is… none of them go to church, some of the grandchildren live together unmarried.
Old-Timer wrote:The online seminary program is very good for an online program. Some kids would thrive who don’t do well in a traditional early morning program, but other kids need the live interaction and would flounder in an online program. I’d like to have both available, no pressure either way, and allow parents and students to choose which one they want to do.
I agree that would be optimal. Many years ago, in the “home study” days (I know, it still does exist), our ward made the decision to have early morning seminary only, no more home study option. Sadly, there were kids and families for whom early morning just doesn’t work and those kids were left out. At the time I was generally supportive of the idea, but in retrospect I’d push for wards/stakes not taking such an all or nothing approach in all areas (not just seminary).
SamBee wrote:On another point, a widow here is quite bitter about how she wasn’t helped out with a loan for funeral costs. Her husband paid full tithes for about fifty years.
As a result, the adult children are angry at the church. The son paid his mother the loan, and complained about how rich the church is… none of them go to church, some of the grandchildren live together unmarried.
I know a very angry now inactive individual who became very put out that the church only offered him limited assistance during a period of unemployment after he and his family had faithfully served, tithed, given generous fast offerings, etc. The bishop actually cut him off after six months with the “It’s meant to be temporary assistance” line.
I have tried to be a loving and good mother, and my husband and I have had a happy home with our children. Our first child was a very devoted church member. Our second was somewhat reluctant. Our third is sort of in between. Our first child ended up having SSA, and slowly stopped attending. It was a painful experience for our family. Our second child has stopped attending, and our third child still attends.
We have tried to listen to our children’s concerns and also not force them to attend church, but as a pretty tried and true member I worried about their salvation and our eternal family, and they didn’t really have a choice when they were young. I think my own faith crisis has been made harder because two of my children no longer attend. They don’t know about my current doubts and feelings about church.
I often wonder why my kids, who I tried to encourage but not force, were not the ones who ended up being devoted to the gospel. It is a painful topic for me. I don’t think we can necessarily take credit for or blame for our kids’ decisions. My only thought is that as a liberal minded family perhaps the church just seems “too conservative” for them. (My oldest’s words).
Seminary is a whole other topic, but it definitely became a big source of stress for our family, and there was no help from those in authority when we tried and tried to get them allow home study.
So why do some kids go along with the program, even when they have a parent that is not active, and doesn’t have callings, etc.? I don’t know. Why do some kids leave as soon as they are 18? Is it because the parents may have been too rigid? In some instances, probably. Or maybe it is just rebellion that comes naturally at a certain age, and that doesn’t mean they won’t return.
With my faith crisis my other dilemma is do I want them to be active members, only to eventually suffer the same crisis I now face? Which is less harmful? Would I want them to serve missions when the information they give is only partially correct? Is it crucial for them to attend church when I have the misgivings I have, and church is difficult even for me?
I don’t know. I’d appreciate your thoughts.
On the other hand my family growing up had much turmoil. Divorce, word of wisdom problems, lots of stress, no FHE, but strict church attendance, and I was a tried and true member for all of my growing up years. So go figure. I think there is no real rhyme or reason sometimes, that maybe it does depend a lot on the personality and needs and desires of each individual child. I think a big part of their activity is their personal character and strengths. My son, for example, has no tolerance for boredom, and the idea of being together as a family doesn’t matter to him. Self-sacrifice for the sake of keeping personal family harmony, or togetherness, is not important to him. Plus, he is very strong-willed. My daughter is spiritually sensitive, responsible, self-sacrificing and kind. I have this feeling she will be active in spite of great challenges in her life. But who knows.
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