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I was thinking the other day about how when folks talk about going to church they sound like it’s going on a vacation to some crime free city that was filled with folks who look, sound and act like they do. You know, like going to some spiritual Disneyland where you don’t occasionally smell puke by the garbage cans. It’s often presented as a little slice of heaven where you’re safe harbored and nothing rocks the boat. You are in the company of the Saints–and I’m not sure that’s a good thing. To my mind there should be sinners at Church…I mean a gathering of folks who look at each other and think, “Yup. I’ve got it going on.” Doesn’t seem to be the sort of thing JC would want to have going on. Should church be a pleasant mutual admiration society where like minded, like dressed, like class/race/political view people should get together and talk about how lucky they are to be in the club?
I’m trying to think about who JC hung out with…it wasn’t middle class…or socially safe…or even law or scripture following. He hung out with whores and degenerates and tax collectors and the low people of the society.
Precisely the sort of people who aren’t welcome in most Wards. In fact those are the folks we fight to be sheltered and kept safe from. Think on it:
Jesus’s sort of people are nothing like the people at church.
Why? And should we be thinking about changing that? Are we a country club church where we don’t even look at folks unless they look like us? What would a future without Sinners coming to church look like?
Just sayin’.
I think you make a good point, especially about lessons and talks that devolve into self-congratulation. I like Ray’s characterization of the church/our wards as hospitals. Hospitals are places set apart, recognized, protected and valued by the community. We go there to get treatment and to tend to each other as best we can. And even though hospitals are “guilty” of having VIP suites, they do, in fact, take all comers. It varies radically from congregation to congregation. I think there are relatively few people who “aren’t welcome”, in general – if they show up on their own or with missionaries. I think the real issue is that too few of us step outside our comfort zones and actively associate with people who are radically different than we are – and then invite them to attend church with us.
As in many cases, when talking about this question, I like to ask:
Quote:“Lord, is it I?”
If it is (and, frankly, it is more often than I like to realize), I try hard not to throw stones.
Granted, no two wards are the same. Part of what got me thinking was the Taylorsville Bishop experiment. Had a poignant “poor wayfaring man” factor to it. A week later we had a family roll in with two clearly unhappy youmg men in jeans and cowboy shirts. They weren’t shunned but nor were they embraced–in tribal terms they were treated warily. I agree completely that acceptance of others who are different is a HUGE issue for Mormons – one that simply has to change if we ever are to help establish Zion. A Stake President I had several years ago was very unhappy with the ward and got up to speak about what he had observed. As a teen, he had been a surfer in CA with divorced parents, and he and his mom were inactive until a seminary teacher really went out of his way to invited him, so he had strong feelings about how we invite others. There were some members in the ward boundaries who didn’t attend anymore because they felt too broken or judged. He said he had heard that some members wrinkled their nose in disgust when they smelled tobacco smoke on someone in church. He told the members he would put ashtrays outside of every entrance to the stake center until members got the point that everyone is welcome, and we are all sinners. He was an amazing Stake President. Old-Timer wrote:I agree completely that acceptance of others who are different is a HUGE issue for Mormons – one that simply has to change if we ever are to help establish Zion.
I agree, Ray. In our own ward I witnessed an unmarried couple with tatoos and multiple facial piercings treated in a manner that was less than welcoming. Nobody was rude (that I’m aware of) and nobody walked up and said a “God doesn’t like that” sort of thing (we have people in our ward who would), but they also weren’t figuratively warmly embraced at all. Although the missionaries had reported the family (there were young children) had been receptive, they didn’t return. This is actually the thought behind Mark Twain’s quote at the bottom of my posts. I don’t think it’s only Mormons that do this, but I also believe Christ would have warmly embraced this couple and those who are far, far more distant from the gospel than they are.
And Hawkgrrrl, that guy does sound like an awesome SP. That we could all have local leaders like that….
I actually think….that many ward members don’t quite know how to approach someone who looks, er, different than the typical attendee. There will be some regular members that look down on these visitors, but I really think that most see the possibilities of the gospel being of benefit to the new person. They just don’t know how to interact with them. I know the answer is simple: treat them like you would any other person. But I think it’s difficult for some.
And I agree that there are way more “sinners” at church than we realize. Of course all of us are to a degree, but significant problems, doubts, and issues abound that don’t have an outward manifestation.
I’m not denying the possibility but I can honestly say that I don’t think I’ve ever lived in a ward that fostered an atmosphere of a mutual admiration society. We’re better than that! 😆 Seriously though, most wards I’ve lived in periodically bring up the hospital for the sick comment… of course those are just words. We all know we are sinners but how do we act where the rubber meets the road (Taylorsville Bishop)? That said I’ve been in wards that are very accepting of people.I think one aspect of human nature is that we rely heavily on outward appearance. Outward appearance is used to build up our expectations of someone, it’s also used to divide – us vs. them. It’s difficult to articulate but I think perception works both ways. In other words some saints judge the sinners as unworthy while some sinners judge the saints to be too perfect. Either direction translates to a division wedge. That said I think by far the more common problem is not being very welcoming.
I think the environment can contribute toward this in a large way. In church no one really wants to advertize their sins, they are hidden away behind a public facade. It’s practically a subconscious reflex, that part of human nature that only wants to present our best traits to others and hide everything else. It’s natural. Another strike, people will think that everyone else is judging them just as much as they are judging others – the facade must be fortified.
The biggie for me is the WoW. It’s hard to put up a facade when you smell of smoke or alcohol. Adherence to the WoW becomes a silent manifestation of self-congratulation. It’s sad that there are people that have shut off spiritual progression from their lives because of the WoW. Maybe members act judgmental toward them when they come to church or maybe the culture has caused them to judge themselves too harshly and they have made the determination that they are unfit to go to church. That thought extends to every “sin.”
So, how to course correct? Maybe if we saw more public confession of sin in church we could help alleviate the problem? I had a teacher that would often use interesting phrasing when asking questions:
Principle such and such is hard, in this situation I’d be tempted to do this and that, so how might I put off the natural man and do what principle such and such teaches?
They acknowledged imperfection and struggles in the question. I think a lot of times the culture of perfection in the church comes out of how flippantly we communicate gospel principles.
Be charitable.
Ok.
As if it was something that came easily to our community.
Maybe imperfect people (all of us) would feel more welcome if we all openly knew that these principles were difficult for all of us to live.
VikingCompass wrote:You are in the company of the Saints–and I’m not sure that’s a good thing. To my mind there should be sinners at Church…I mean a gathering of folks who look at each other and think, “Yup. I’ve got it going on.” Doesn’t seem to be the sort of thing JC would want to have going on. Should church be a pleasant mutual admiration society where like minded, like dressed, like class/race/political view people should get together and talk about how lucky they are to be in the club?
I get this and agree largely with what you and nibbler have written. One of my favorite quotes says that the two biggest groups that are successful at church are the saints and the liars.
I imagine church somewhat like a restaurants. There are many varieties and they all have their good points and bad points. Sometimes you go to a fancy restaurant to be around other fancy people that follow a dress code and mind their manners. Many would feel uncomfortable in that environment and would prefer to just be around “regular folk.” I agree that we are generally not a “come as you are” church.
As I have visited other churches I have met some really great people that I’m not sure would do well in the LDS faith. Not everyone has to like our product. We serve a niche in the community and market it as “one size fits all.”
We have a version of the gospel that works pretty well for some people. There are some advantages to “spiritual Disneyland.”
Other churches have versions of the gospel that work better for some people. I’m ok with that.
As far as Jesus – I’m not sure he would hang out at our church or even at any church. I’m ok with that too.
I attended a funeral at a local small church. It was a very low budget church, in fact their sign read “it’s a pretty good church” and the members dressed in regular sheet clothes. I was dressed in my dress blues representing the Navy and presenting the US flag to the family. They were the friendly, most welcoming group of people I have meant in a long time. I thought at that time what a difference then my local ward. I have been to many different churches in my life and I feel comfortable in most. People are just people and care about the same things like family and friends. I really believe the saying where two or more gather in name, my spirit will be there, can be so true. I agree we can do better at church and also outside of church when no one is watching. Old-Timer wrote:It varies radically from congregation to congregation.
I think there are relatively few people who “aren’t welcome”, in general – if they show up on their own or with missionaries. I think the real issue is that too few of us step outside our comfort zones and actively associate with people who are radically different than we are – and then invite them to attend church with us.
As in many cases, when talking about this question, I like to ask:
Quote:“Lord, is it I?”
If it is (and, frankly, it is more often than I like to realize), I try hard not to throw stones.
Interesting, we attend a ward outside our geographical boundary. At first everyone was very interested and kind when they thought we were preparing to move there (a possibility at the time). Now, my teenage daughter gets continued love treatment (and gives it in kind), but the adults essentially ignore us. A member of the Bishopric talks to us only about when we are going to receive our records! the other day he walked up to us, and I could feel he was going to say that — I could see his thought processes. Then I saw him catch himself and then move on. It was empathic. Our WML is the only one who talks to me as one of the Ward members. in HPGL, they pretty much ignore anything I say and seem like they don’t know what to do with me, sitting there in my colored shirt without any formal membership in the Ward.
In a way, I’m not sad as I am not putting into the community, so perhaps I don’t deserve much deference. But my wife feels the same way.
In my view, the church is full of sinners and people who divide, no need to engineer a mix. And yes, there are wards that are pure heaven. I have a fond memory of one…sinners become saints in those wards far more easily than in others.
I think it can depend on the congregation. I’ve been to some where no one talks about their faults and weaknesses. It’s sterile and artificial because people seem to be trying to keep up appearances. In others Sunday School is like a weekly confessionary. People are more open about what they struggle with and what they need to do differently.
I know which I prefer, but I think balance is also important.
I watched BYUTV’s Silent Night Last night and it reminded me of this thread. According to the film, Josef Mohr was only trying to make church comfortable for all. I wonder if there was an intended message there, or it just happened. (Elder Oaks once said there are no coincidences.)
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