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What’s the point of faith? This has been a big sticking point for me. Given that absolute, irrefutable evidence for God is probably impossible, we’re left to simply choose our beliefs one way or the other, based on whatever incomplete evidence and subjective experiences we have. I have a big problem relying on emotion as evidence, and I feel that what most believers take as evidence is probably the result of confirmation bias. My own experiences haven’t given me anything that makes me want to believe. It might just be complacence on my part, since I haven’t experienced any major trials, haven’t lost anyone close to me, etc.
But without strong reasons to believe, I’m left wondering what’s the point? Why would God take away my pre-earth memories and then require me to believe in something for no real reason?
For awhile I felt drawn to existentialism, particularly Kierkegaard, but also Sartre and others. Kierkegaard felt that the choice to believe in God was the ultimate choice, but to be honest I never could quite fathom his reasoning as to why. Something to do with how belief in the absurd connects us to the absolute, or something. But in general the idea behind existentialism is that as humans all we have are choices, and so the act of choosing is itself the real measuring stick. It doesn’t even matter what the choice is, as long as it’s made honestly and passionately (there’s more to it, but I don’t want to get too detailed). This also resonates with the emphasis on free agency from LDS teachings.
Yet this still leaves me wanting. If it doesn’t matter what the choice is, then why choose faith over skepticism? I’ve been reading through some past conversations on this forum and have found some good thoughts on this:
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Faith is generally good for people as far as making them happier and healthier in this life in many cases compared to some of the alternatives like nihilism, apathy, etc.
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The truth is that most of us don’t really know for sure what will happen when we die but as far as I’m concerned having a positive outlook about the possibility of life after death is already worth it simply based on the quality it adds to this life and to have an extremely skeptical and pessimistic attitude about it would clearly be taking a step down in my opinion.
Old-Timer wrote:I think there is unimaginable power in believing more than can be seen (and terrible restraint in believing only what can be seen) – even while I admit that such power can be used in very different ways. It certainly can be abused and cause terrible horrors, but it also can be used to create beauty and hope and light. It’s a two-edged sword, and it must be wielded intentionally and thoughtfully – but I simply believe it must be wielded if someone truly is to have joy and peace of any kind.
SilentDawning wrote:The burden on acting on faith can be lighter than the burden of not-knowing. The burden of non-knowing implies a lack of action. And with a lack of action comes a lack of knowledge and learning. You can act on some of the most imperfect theories, and then still gain additional enlightenment you would otherwise NOT have achieved if you retired to the armchair of agnosticism and inaction about the topic. In fact, one might argue that having a scientific mind involves embracing theories which are not yet scientifically proven, when they are all we have available. Such is the nature of inquiry and the creation of new knowledge.
dash1730 wrote:The only rational reason that a loving God would require his children to live out their mortality in uncertainty, and therefore make wrong decisions, is if there is some benefit. I suspect that the benefit is to allow each one of us to make those choices from whatever options life presents. So everyone can choose to be loving and kind to everyone he meets, from the atheist to the TBM. Christ said that love is the greatest commandment, and that all other commandments spring from it. From this premise, I have faith that everyone has a real chance at at God ‘s highest reward, the Celestial Kingdom. From this I can take joy in, and honestly support others with different belief systems as they strive to live their faith’s, while I strive to live mine.
Spencer W. Kimball wrote:Revelations will probably never come unless they are desired. I think few people receive revelations while lounging on the couch or while playing cards or while relaxing. I believe most revelations would come when a man is on his tip toes, reaching as high as he can for something which he knows he needs, and then there bursts upon him the answer to his problems.
What are your thoughts? Even if I’ve already quoted you, please feel free to elaborate.
I don’t know if you saw this post from last year. It’s a poem one of my daughters wrote for a high school class assignment. I think it’s relevant to your question.
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Imagine If” ( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3098&hilit=imagine+if Without getting too philosophical, I’ll just say that I would be happier if I truly believed. Regardless of how accurate it was, I sure did enjoy the faith I had. There’s no joy in being an Atheist. Freedom, yes. Clarity, yes. Certainty, yes. Joy? Not so much, not for me, anyway. I’ve heard other Atheists express that it brings a deeper appreciation for life, since we know this is all we have. For me, I appreciated life plenty before. There is nothing as bitter as losing a loved one and believing with all your soul that that person has slipped away for good, as if they never existed. This is why I don’t quibble over the faith of others. I don’t let it get my back up. Good for them. I wish I had it still.
I’m much like On Own Now on the subject. I was happy when I had faith, and in my atheist and agnostic phases I was unhappy. Now in the deist phase (where I have been for several years), I’m still not happy. Part of that certainly is that I yearn for the faith I once had but likely will not ever have again. Like OON, I’ve taken a “let it be” attitude. I don’t care what others believe (or “know”), I’ve become comfortable with what I believe (and don’t know). And while not totally happy, I’m not miserable, either – ignorance may indeed have been bliss. As to your question about what the point of faith is – I have no idea. Fortunately my deist God requires little in the way of faith.
This isnt an entirely satisfactory answer because I’m still figuring it out myself. I’ve started to think that my faith more like a culture. Even though I wasnt technically Mormon until baptized at age 8 I was already steeped in Mormon culture and language. Mormon is sort of who I am even if I become less active or leave the church. It seems to come down to faith or no faith. I feel better off in the bittersweet of an openly imperfect faith.
My faith journey has largely been an activity of wiping my definitions slate clean and starting new. Your question first requires me to ask myself what does “faith” mean to me. I look at faith as something similar to optimism. Why have faith in general (not talking about God)? As they quote Henry Ford: Quote:Whether you believe you can, or believe you can’t …you’re right.
Faith is a way of believing you can.
I realize that doesn’t have a lot to do with some specific concept of God, and I like it that way. Yes I have faith, even with my admission that I have virtually no firm understanding about what may happen before or after mortal life. I take all the speculations of my religious tradition as meaningful expressions of human needs. Some personalities crave security, while others are more comfortable with freedom.
Do I have faith in God? …First I have to decide what “God” means to me. I really like the idea we find in 1 John: “God is Love” This is the main trait and power that I associate with God. All through the scriptures I find more support for the idea that the power of God is the power of Love. Do I have faith in Love? (As one example) Absolutely.
Maybe you’re starting to follow my line of thought. While others may assume anthropomorphic attributes or mico-managing involvement in our lives when talking about God – I don’t, and for the most part it doesn’t get in the way of my religious conversations.
I find value in having faith, like having trust and having love…it is allowing myself to feel the power that comes from things despite having less than full certainty. I love the movie Serenity, and one scene has an exchange:
Quote:Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Ah, hell, Shepherd, I ain’t looking for help from on high. That’s a long wait for a train don’t come.
Shepherd Book: Why when I talk about belief, why do you always assume I’m talking about God?
There is more to having faith in our lives then just doctrine or organized religion. Faith is bigger.
Faith can have a motivating power in our lives, and help us feel comforted in a cold world where we cannot see all things before us.
A classic bit of poetry on faith in Heb 11:1 is “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith is:-The feeling of hope. It’s the power to get out of bed in the morning and engage the world.
-The energy we expend striving for a goal (which may or may not be realized).
-It is a real thing we experience both in our minds and bodies, like a “substance” we work with.
-It is a potential reality, an imagining we create, an evidence of things that *might* be.
-Accepting the wisdom of others we trust, especially when we know we lack experience or knowledge of our own.
Faith is not:-Accepting views as “truth” that don’t match our experience or our hopes.
-Obeying others when our intelligence, abilities and senses tell us something is wrong.
-It is not an excuse to be lazy and depend on others for all our spiritual (and practical) decisions.
When we experience something as true or not true, functional or dysfunctional, uplifting or harmful; it is no longer evidence of things
notseen. We have first-hand experience (a testimony) and have seen. I question the value of faith now. I think it can be used as a front for falsehood. I am not aiming this statement at the church or Mormonism, but in general. There are so many instances where people have used the faith of others, and their desire to be good, for selfish and even harmful ends. The Jim Jones People’s Temple massacre is a case in point. I also think faith can be usd to mask inconsistencies or even outright indications that certain religions are false. Its a very dangerous thing when leaders ask people to put their brains, their intuition, and their sense of right and wrong on the shelf to follow the direction of religious leaders.
What is healthy faith? Faith in oneself, one’s intrinsic worth in spite of the messages of unworth the world sends, faith that the world can be or will be a just place, faith there is something after this life that makes the experience in eathly existence worthwhile. Faith that clean and good living is worth it….faith in one’s ability to achieve a wholesome, good vision or objective. Faith that others can change and be good themselves, in spite of their current circumstances.
Beyond that, I have trouble with faith. It has let me down too many times to have faith in doctrine and dogma any longer. Even faith in prophets is shaky for me — given how wrong they have been in the past.
Your comments have definitely given me a lot of think about. Some of your ideas really spoke to me. Heber13 wrote:like having trust and having love…it is allowing myself to feel the power that comes from things despite having less than full certainty.
Orson wrote:I really like the idea we find in 1 John: “God is Love” This is the main trait and power that I associate with God. All through the scriptures I find more support for the idea that the power of God is the power of Love. Do I have faith in Love? (As one example) Absolutely.
Love is a power that most people, at least in our culture, won’t argue with. Personally, I’ve never been overly sentimental. I have never put a huge amount of stock in the idea of love. When I married my wife, I didn’t feel a hundred percent certain that I was in love. But I knew that I felt comfortable around her, I admired many of her qualities, I respected her, and I trusted her. I felt confident that we could be happy together. I definitely put some faith into the act of marrying her. We’ve made mistakes, but by and large the faith and trust I exercised have paid off. There has absolutely been a certain kind of power in the way we have trusted one another, despite not feeling an absolute certainty about what the future will hold.Old-Timer wrote:What if you never find it?
What if you never stop searching?
What if the map is infinite?
What if that’s the point?
Imagine if.
I also find value in having a search-orientation, in continuing to inquire and look for more even if you’re not sure you will find definite answers. I know that at times my agnosticism has led me into apathy. But by and large I have always felt the urge to keep learning and growing. And I have always felt enough faith in myself to feel confident that I can figure things out, given the right resources. I’m not sure I will ever have the resources to figure out what happens after death, but that doesn’t mean it’s pointless to keep trying to figure it out.Thanks everybody. I definitely welcome any further thoughts you might have.
Asking what is the value of faith is like asking what is the value of the Internet 20 years ago. The concept might sounds intriguing, but you just don’t know until you’ve experienced it first hand. Then you wonder how you ever managed without it. Faith drives discovery. Without faith (“I have hope in what I can’t see right now, so I will act in a way that I believe will give me evidence of what I can’t see.”), complacency sets in and inhibits discovery.
The concept of faith (without the religious connotations) is the heart of the scientific method.
The opposite of faith is certainty, and certainty leads to stagnation. (Also, certainty is misunderstood too often to be knowledge. I think that misunderstanding is one of the biggest issues in the Church right now, and it hampers real faith.)
Thanks for that, Ray. You helped crystallize some of the thoughts I’d been having about faith.
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