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Should a lesson on “Joseph and Hyrum Smith, Witnesses for Jesus Christ” exclude D&C 135? I don’t like it, and am not entirely sure I know why. I would appreciate your thoughts. Whenever I give lessons about JS I try to avoid deifying him at all costs. We have enough of that in the church already I think. Sorry but ill quote myself from another post here. Hope it can be of some use to you – otherwise just ignore it:):
Gave a lesson from the lorenzo snow manual this sunday. It went great!
It was mostly about not having too much false “trust” in our leaders otherwise we can set ourselves up for a major disappointment when we find out that they are just normal people with normal problems.
Whe talked a lot about JS attributes – and also the negative ones that he had.
I saw a lot of heads nodding and some people who where giving me the “what??? i didn’t know that about JS!”
Someone mentioned polygamy (also that he married a 13 year old) but i quickly shut it down by mentioning the law of adoption that was practiced earlier and said that it was HUGE topic that we couldn’t cover in 10 minutes (what was left off the lesson). but also mentioned you could go VERY deep into that subject. (On a side note – polygamy is one thing that i don’t understand AT ALL!)
I quoted JS:
I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor & dividing his substance, than the long smoothed faced hypocrites. I don’t want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
And the BY quote where he talks about him being very afraid that we trust our leaders blindly and do not find our own faith and that that blind faith could lead to spiritual “sleepiness” (oh yes! i am paraphrasing very loosely here!!)
In the end i asked everyone to take the church leaders advice – but at the same time not using it as a pillow but to gain our own testimonies about whatever truth there would be – wherever it could be. Just as JS did – to wonder or doubt and SEARCH and go wherever truth would lead us and not base our belief on any prophet but truth and God. (but at the same time listening to the prophet)
Went great. I felt I rocked the boat a little but everyone seemed edified and they didn’t misunderstand me (i think); and all the rocking was done in a safe environment. In that way people know that they can think outside the box and ask questions and still feel welcome.
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I think that reference to Joseph Smith has done more, save anti-Mormon literature only, to perpetuate myths of cultism in our church. I would avoid mentioning it at all costs. We deify leaders enough when they don’t deserve it. I would NOT put this scripture out there to perpetuate that cultural value in our church. I’ve always disliked that statement, and the older I get and the more I understand the more I dislike it. I also dislike the “hymn” Praise to the Man. I honestly don’t think Joseph Smith desired this kind of worship (yes, worship – the antis are right) and I don’t think God likes it – isn’t that part if what was wrong with Satan’s plan? It’s not that I don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, I do. I don’t believe in worshiping men, or saints, or angels, or anyone or anything else but God. That quote specifically was written just after the martyrdom. It is somewhat “over the top” but I can understand the context in which it was given. OTOH – I don’t know that it has any place in a lesson. What is the class to understand from such a quote? That JS sits right below the Godhead in importance and authority? No Thank You.
I know that I personally had thought of JS as some sort of Super Prophet and I was disappointed by the more mistake prone picture of JS depicted in RSR.
What Roy said. It was like a eulogy given by grieving friends who loved him dearly and had “laid down their lives” (literally, in some cases) for the cause he taught. I can understand the emotion that produced it, and I have NO problem with it in the actual context in which it was given. Now, outside of a funeral environment? No, it is too easy to misinterpret and fuels too many negative reactions among non-Mormons – and, as far as people on Earth is concerned simply isn’t accurate (even though I might say “yet” if I was trying to give it the benefit of the doubt). Paul, the early apostle, has done more to spread Christianity and the message of the Gospel, than anyone else in history – including Jesus himself. The quote only works for people who believe in the concept of temple work for the dead – and who believe it literally has to happen for the dead to be exalted. I get that, but I never use the quote when I’m teaching lessons. I don’t need to use it, since those who believe it already know it.
SilentDawning wrote:I think that reference to Joseph Smith has done more, save anti-Mormon literature only, top perpetuate myths of cultism in our church.
Embroider this on a pillow!
Quote:We deify leaders enough when they don’t deserve it.
And they NEVER deserve it. They are humans, not gods.
Here is the link to sermon Joseph gave, that Bear quoted. http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=9581 And the Quote from Brigham Young about leaders is..
Quote:I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they will settle down in a state of blind self security. Let every man & woman know, bu the whispering of the spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates or not
Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. I was excited about teaching until I flipped through the manual. (Joseph Fielding Smith) Kind of scared now. mom3 wrote:Here is the link to sermon Joseph gave, that Bear quoted.
http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=9581 Thanks.
Love this:
Quote:There was one good man, Jesus. Many think a prophet must be a great deal better than any body else… I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm and [is attentive to] administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smoothed faced hypocrites.
I don’t want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
(quotes thread… harvested)
Ann, If it were me, I absolutely would use D&C135 and introduce it as a eulogy published in the Times & Seasons for their Hero and Champion and understand it in that context. Nothing wrong with anything that was said considering that that was their view at that time. But then it was later canonized, and now a lot of people “outside” the Church find it offensive to compare JS to JC, so let’s now talk about how we treat the subject of JS without falling into worship of man. I would talk about how JS wasn’t perfect. He didn’t claim to be perfect. I would show some quotes from him along those lines and then I would say that JS himself probably wouldn’t like for us to think of him in that way. I would clarify that the statement doesn’t compare him to JC at all, but says that of all the people that have lived, JC was in a category by himself and that then when you take everyone else as a group, that JS was up there at the top of that second-class group, as his close associates saw him. But, then I’d say, but what about Paul (as Curtis mentioned)… Paul would be there too… What about Nephi, Moroni, Peter, Isaiah, Moses, Alma, Elijah? I would end the discussion with, it’s probably best for us if we don’t get into the game of comparing relative value among great people… it should be sufficient to say that JS was the Founding Prophet (as the RLDS call him), but that we should worship Jesus, and then worry about ourselves.
There will likely be someone that will say, but like it says right here, “He has done more save Jesus only”, and I would respond with, “Do you think JS would have written this statement about himself?” And I’d add, “more germane to our lives today, we have all known people that think we worship JS. Why is that, and how do we avoid it and put our emphasis on Jesus Christ?”
I wouldn’t simply give a lesson pretending D&C135 doesn’t exist, because it is the elephant in the room. I would say that this is one of the cultural problems of the Church and that it presents a great opportunity to try to have a positive influence on the culture. At the same time, it has to be done in a respectful and non-confrontational way. It should be self-evident that we should not worship JS… use that as the truth that underlies the hole discussion. I would use as the prompt, the question of how we avoid worshiping him, or even the appearance that we worship him.
Curtis wrote:The quote only works for people who believe in the concept of temple work for the dead – and who believe it literally has to happen for the dead to be exalted. I get that, but I never use the quote when I’m teaching lessons. I don’t need to use it, since those who believe it already know it.
I’m picturing a husband and wife comparing notes after church. . . . and him saying I had missed the point by not “owning” the church’s assertion that temple work literally does have to happen. I guess I have to be okay with that.
On Own Now wrote:I wouldn’t simply give a lesson pretending D&C135 doesn’t exist, because it is the elephant in the room. I would say that this is one of the cultural problems of the Church and that it presents a great opportunity to try to have a positive influence on the culture. At the same time, it has to be done in a respectful and non-confrontational way. It should be self-evident that we should not worship JS….
A Joseph Fielding Smith quote from the manual: “I now say – That Joseph Smith is the one to whom all men must look in this day to learn the truth about Christ and his gospel.” I don’t know how to get around my discomfort with this one, too. Initially I thought I would just punt and switch weeks, but I can honestly say that I’m feeling some encouragement from the Spirit to give the lesson I would want to hear.
Ann wrote:I can honestly say that I’m feeling some encouragement from the Spirit to give the lesson I would want to hear.
I wish I could be there!Do it — the most powerful expressions are those of the truth in our own souls.
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