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It’s a cruel trick that I keep getting assigned to teach the lessons I had the hardest time with during the last general conf. First it was Oaks’ talk, now Bednar’s. I did my usual research on the subject, this time it’s tithing, and what I learned made me feel worse than ever about paying tithing myself 
1. tithing goes to help the poor and needy
2. tithing is a commandment
3. the windows of heaven will be open if we pay it
4. a full tithe is 10% of our paycheck
5. Lorenzo Snow traveled across Utah condemning the saints for not paying proper tithes, and then in a moment of revelation, prophesied that the drought would end if they payed a full tithe (as in the church produced movie, “The Windows of Heaven.”)
I hope I don’t have to bow out of this lesson, I just can’t teach it the way they probably want me to. Short of trying to go completely against the grain of the intended message of Bednar’s talk, there might be some things I can teach, without making the lesson about the blessings we get from tithing. Such as, what the law of tithing actually states, what it’s used for, charitable giving, the savior’s commandment to serve the lord through serving the poor, and fast offerings.
Any suggestions of good discussion questions or other input?
Tough one. A while back I reflected on how the blessings of tithing are the blessings of giving. There are no tangible blessings of paying tithing. Not direct “get rich quick” nor “have you bills paid by a miracle” outcomes.
Whenever anyone is willing to see money as not really theirs, but a gift. When they let go of all the things they could do with all of their money then there’s a freedom that comes with it.
This is not the blessing of giving tithing. This is the blessing of giving. All are entitled to it.
Even though I don’t entirely agree with the different ways tithing is used I accept the principle of giving and being willing to let go of a dependency on material things.
Not sure that helps much though.
Agreed, tough assignment again. If it were me: 1) The March 19, 1970 letter on tithing. I wouldn’t so much as hint at a suggestion as to what method of calculation could be considered a full tithe. Just what’s in the letter and that the letter is the official position of the church. People may try to comment about the “accepted” method. Personally I don’t know how I’d steer it back to the official position.
Ok, here’s the thing. Everyone has already heard tithing is 10% many, many times, I don’t know that this even needs to be a part of the lesson. I just wouldn’t even mention it.
2) The windows of heaven. If the conversation ventured too much into the temporal/financial blessings that are the result of paying tithing I think I’d say “but if not?” If we never get temporal blessings then what is coming through the window of heaven? I could see someone claiming that we aren’t looking hard enough, but I’d still try to steer the conversation toward learning spiritual lessons from tithing. Emphasis on
learning. Sometimes I think we get caught up on simply listing blessings but listing is not learning. Especially when it is related to a lesson that is so oft repeated, tithing. Knowing the temporal, how can we connect to the spiritual? D&C 29:34. But If Not:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2002/10/but-if-not?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2002/10/but-if-not?lang=eng 3) I’m not going to lie, there isn’t much of that talk by way of a quote that I would draw from. I might just use the talk as a launching point. They assigned me Elder Bednar’s talk Windows of Heaven. It is about tithing, let’s talk about tithing… and then not reference it again.
:angel: I might read the bit about the stripling warriors. In that section of the talk I see the trappings of only mentioning nebulous blessings like assurance and peace. That doesn’t necessarily work for me. What does more assurance and peace mean? That my fire insurance is paid up? That’s not a spiritual blessing IMO, it’s borderline coercion. There is the reliance on the lord angle, but sometimes people have lost even that.I’d rather the focus of the class be the spiritual blessings that are directly related to the act of paying tithing. E.g. letting go of temporal things that can take control over our lives. Maybe I’m out on a limb here but how tithing facilitates the process of learning how to prioritize and how prioritization can apply to other areas in our life.
4) I don’t know how this can be done but it would be nice to have a class on tithing recognizing that there are some in the audience that don’t pay it and teaching the class in such a manner where they feel like they were edified in some way. I worry about the non-payer, whether by choice or by lack of funds. Most of the time these frequent tithing classes just make half the class feel like crap. Maybe that’s the point, a humbling call to repentance, but still.
5) Wants vs. needs. Many times when blessings are discussed one of the blessings that is mentioned is that having less money creates the environment where we have to curb our wants. When it was my turn to teach I’d often ask the questions that were on my mind and try to get the quorum to teach me. I learned a lot that way. I definitely would have gone down the road of “and what if our needs aren’t being met?” and allow the class to teach me their perspective. Their perspective might not jibe with mine but at least I’d know it.
Good luck. That’s a tough talk to draw material from. Let us know how it goes.
The following is from my Sunday School lesson recap from a lesson last September about commandments: Quote:Meaning = “a tenth” (Stressed that there is no official calculation method dictated by the Church – that different members pay on gross, net, “increase”, weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, annually, whenever they get money, etc.)
Purpose = from a student: Detachment and humility
Purpose = I added “Fund the Church” (Discussed Old Testament model and modern similarities and differences; discussed exactly what tithing funds and what it doesn’t.)
If you want to talk about the idea of tithing as financial insurance or “eternal fire insurance”, I have written a couple of posts on my personal blog about that. Just click on the label near the bottom right for tithing.
Wow that’s a tough one. Tithing is a hot-button topic for me and Elder Bednar’s talk was… frustrating… to listen to. What I remember most about it was how he point to its “simplicity”… which is a joke because it is so strongly nuanced by sides of the aisle. The one quote from the talk that REALLY bugged me was: Quote:“Section 119 simply states that all members “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, … saith the Lord” (verse 4).”
To me it is terrible that an Apostle… a member of the Ruling Councils of the Church, would not understand (or would intentionally mislead) about this. That statement in the D&C isn’t about us, but about those who had been previously tithed (given all their surplus to the Church). Extending this statement to all of us shows a very poor knowledge of the historical law, its description in 119, and the target audience for the revelation. And he made it worse by saying “simply”.Yet, you need to teach the lesson, so how to proceed…
It’s very obscure, but there was a tiny article in the New Era a few years ago about whether to pay tithing before or after taxes. New Era? Yeah, like I said, pretty obscure. Yet, because it was in the New Era, the article is now on lds.org:
I would probably introduce the FP letter and this New Era article by saying something like, “One thing I thought was interesting about Elder Bednar’s talk was what he DIDN’T say. He didn’t say how to calculate tithing…”
I like Curtis’ idea of talking about helping to fund the work of the Church. That’s what tithing is. We mystify it too much when we talk of Windows of Heaven, and the Lord’s Tenth, and the “blessings” of paying tithing. I think we need to put more emphasis on it as a vehicle to further the work of the Church. And if that is important to someone, that’s a very good reason to give, regardless of any expectation of blessings from God.
I like the New Era statement, since “prayerfully consider” means the Church does not have one simple, universal, easy answer that ought to be obvious for everyone. Hopefully, your largest takeaway for this lesson would be that each person in the room has the right to decide what the best way is for him or her to calculate tithing – and that nobody has the right to try to make or dictate that decision for anyone else. If you use “official church sources”, nobody can argue legitimately with you – although that won’t stop some people from arguing with you (especially those who consider themselves the most loyal and dedicated – delicious irony).
🙄 On Own Now wrote:Wow that’s a tough one. Tithing is a hot-button topic for me and Elder Bednar’s talk was… frustrating… to listen to. What I remember most about it was how he point to its “simplicity”… which is a joke because it is so strongly nuanced by sides of the aisle. The one quote from the talk that REALLY bugged me was:
Quote:“Section 119 simply states that all members “shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, … saith the Lord” (verse 4).”
To me it is terrible that an Apostle… a member of the Ruling Councils of the Church, would not understand (or would intentionally mislead) about this. That statement in the D&C isn’t about us, but about those who had been previously tithed (given all their surplus to the Church). Extending this statement to all of us shows a very poor knowledge of the historical law, its description in 119, and the target audience for the revelation. And he made it worse by saying “simply”.Yet, you need to teach the lesson, so how to proceed…
It’s very obscure, but there was a tiny article in the New Era a few years ago about whether to pay tithing before or after taxes. New Era? Yeah, like I said, pretty obscure. Yet, because it was in the New Era, the article is now on lds.org:
I would probably introduce the FP letter and this New Era article by saying something like, “One thing I thought was interesting about Elder Bednar’s talk was what he DIDN’T say. He didn’t say how to calculate tithing…”
I like Curtis’ idea of talking about helping to fund the work of the Church. That’s what tithing is. We mystify it too much when we talk of Windows of Heaven, and the Lord’s Tenth, and the “blessings” of paying tithing. I think we need to put more emphasis on it as a vehicle to further the work of the Church. And if that is important to someone, that’s a very good reason to give, regardless of any expectation of blessings from God.
That’s a great quote. Succinct and to the point. I’ll add it to the library.
Quote:
Do I pay tithing on my income before taxes are taken out or on what I receive after taxes?The First Presidency has answered this question in this way: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).
In other words, the way you define your income, and consequently your tithing, is a matter between you and the Lord. Prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance on issues like taxes, gifts, scholarships, and other matters to determine what qualifies as a full tithe.
These are great suggestions, thanks for helping me think through this carefully. I talked to my bishop about this lesson, telling him I wanted to discuss what an honest tithe can mean, and how I thought that the trend from leaders in the last several years had misleadingly implied that a “true” tithe is 10% of one’s paycheck. He didn’t seem to agree. He read the 1970 statement and told me he councils people to define income on their own, prayerfully. When I told him I thought it was abusive to suggest to people that they sacrifice and pay their tithes even when they can’t feed their family properly if they do, he told me he councils people to do just that, because the blessings are so important. Then he helps them make payments on rent, food, etc. throught the funds of the church. I thought that was an interesting approach, and that there is some merit to it. He also told me, regarding the usage of church funds, that there is a lot of expenditures on charity that go largely unnoticed, like the transfer of a large group of missionaries to, I think it was Haiti after the recent natural disaster, to offer strictly service for the remainder of their missions. Sometimes they give money to other charities who have more capabilities to serve. Another example he gave was giving high end surgical equipment and the training of doctors in an African country to provide laser eye surgery to its citizens. I replied that I wished the church were more open about its finances, and that it was held accountable. I think he made a good point about the charitable giving, though even if you add it up, it amounts to a tiny percent of its income.
We have discussed in the past the concept of a social contract with regard to tithing. It’s something in which I believe strongly. I have NO problem with people paying tithing first, even if that puts them in a position of not being able to meet their basic needs, IF AND ONLY IF they have a Bishop like yours who will pay for those basic needs through fast offering funds. If the end result is that basic necessities are met, I actually like the fact that paying tithing can allow all members to help fund the Church, regardless of their socio-economic situation. It’s incredibly empowering to me, since it makes the widow’s mite really mean something.
However I am against someone paying tithing in that situation and not receiving reciprocal assistance (which means they cannot provide the basic necessities, and they and/or their family suffers in a real way as a result).
If the Church holds up its end of the contract (and I know lots of Bishops who do exactly what your Bishops does), I have no problem with such an arrangement.
I completely agree with the concept of reciprocal support for people who pay beyond their means in one and only one case: where the person is paying tithing and the Bishop is reciprocating support at least as much as the tithing paid. The reality, though, is that many, many people have to forgo “luxuries” that will not be met in reciprocity of food or rent checks. “Luxuries” might include education costs, a second car, savings, or a bike for their kid. Read this from GC 2011 and see if your stomach doesn’t turn at the prospect of forgoing education of poor children in order to pay tithing… something that was not, in turn, supplied back to the family by the Church.
The story may have happened long ago, but it was told in conference in the 2010’s as an example of the blessings of tithing.
One part of that talk jumped out at me, I found it more interesting than anything. It was a reference to an article by Faust in the Liahona from April 2007. Here’s the full text from the source of the quotation for context: Quote:Tithing.I learned in serving almost 20 years as bishop and as stake president that an excellent insurance against divorce is the payment of tithing. Payment of tithing seems to facilitate keeping the spiritual battery charged in order to make it through the times when the spiritual generator has been idle or is not working. There is no great or majestic music that constantly produces the harmony of a great love. The most perfect music is a welding of two voices into one spiritual song. Marriage is the way provided by God for the fulfillment of the greatest of human needs, based upon mutual respect, maturity, selflessness, decency, commitment, and honesty. Happiness in marriage and parenthood can exceed a thousand times any other happiness.
Yeah, that is interesting. I don’t agree with the first paragraph but do agree with the second one. That happens a lot with talks – and other things in other areas of my life. People believe what they believe based on the experiences they have had. I’m fine with that, even as I’m not fine with all the results of that.
Quote:Tithing.I learned in serving almost 20 years as bishop and as stake president that an excellent insurance against divorce is the payment of tithing. Payment of tithing seems to facilitate keeping the spiritual battery charged in order to make it through the times when the spiritual generator has been idle or is not working. My own bishop told me that he sees people that have trouble with tithing soon have trouble in other commandment areas as well – as though it were the “gateway sin.”
I told him that this makes alot of sense as an early indicator of other issues but that it is not necessarily causational. Even if we look at it as a canary in a mine – sometimes the canary just dies of old age or illness or other unrelated causes.
I look at these examples as reasoning through fear. The underlying message seems to be that if you don’t pay your tithing, you will degenerate into all sorts of depravity – eventually destroying your marriage and your life.
Please read page 1 of this thread before you teach that lesson I think tithing comes down to paying for the Church’s basic three fold mission. For everyone’s sake we need to spread the gospel, perfect the Saints and redeem the dead. And that costs money. Personally I don’t mind sacrificing to accomplish these objectives. But I do get frustrated with leaders constantly promising me I will be blessed or, like Elder Bednar’s talk, positing that there are more subtle blessings occurring in my life in order to explain why more tangible benefits do not materialize. This feeling is further compounded when leaders resort to chiding me that if I am not seeing these blessings it is because I am doing something wrong even if it is something as simple as not looking hard enough. Personally I believe tithing is a sacrifice we make mostly to bless others just as those who came before sacrificed for us. When the Church’s mission is accomplished someday, and I still believe it will be, then perhaps we will receive the real blessings of paying tithing viz – the opportunity to live in a society of like-hearted people concerned enough about the welfare of others to actually sacrifice some of their own comforts for them. And on that day, I know I would not feel worthy to live among them if I felt I had not contributed my share. What that share is I think you can properly leave to any honest person’s conscience and the definition given in the Church Handbook of Instructions.
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