Illegal or not?

We have “state of emergency” around here when weather causes it to be unsafe to travel and the sheriff likewise issues a “no unnecessary travel” and sometimes “no travel” order. Usually people don’t heed these warnings and the deputies and troopers are so busy with other things (sometimes the accidents caused by the travelers) that tickets are rare. However, we believe that the sheriff knows what he’s talking about and always follow the order. Church in not necessary travel. While I don’t know of a definition of unnecessary travel I’ve always considered it to be medical emergency, nurses and doctors needing to get to work, and the like. When these orders are issued most businesses close or don’t open. I don’t ever recall an instance where our local leaders have violated these orders, and they usually make a fairly concerted effort (home teachers call, neighbors call, YM/YW leaders call, etc.) to tell people not to come to whatever activity or Sunday meetings.

So I agree with you Angel333, even if others did choose not to follow the order, we would follow it regardless of what the bishop said (although ours has always agreed with our view). I do believe the church believes in following the law as stated in the AofF. Your description of the reaction goes back to this idea of infallibility that some people have about local leaders. It’s just not so. But, there’s nothing you can do about it except vent and stew, and I’m sorry for that.

When we have our big “nor’easter” type storms here, schools usually close because it is believed the roads are unsafe for students and buses. Back in the 80s there was a kind of renegade superintendent who decided that education that day was more important – even though snow days are made up. One of their buses slid off the road and down an embankment killing several students and injuring several more. That particular district now closes at the drop of a hat (a few flakes of snow), and others readily close because of that incident. It would be just as sad if something similar happened because someone was following their bishop’s idea that roads are safe despite what our government leaders say.

Our Bishop gets on our ward facebook and says “The roads are FINE we will be having all of our meetings”

I look at this and imagine that it is the Bishop’s prerogative to hold or cancel meetings. I do wish that he didn’t say that the roads are fine – I do not think it should be up to him to declare road conditions. I wish that he had said that the ward will be holding all the regular meetings. We understand if many of you can’t make it. We urge all that decide to come join us to exercise care and caution in your travels.

OTOH, openly disagreeing about a bishop’s decision for the ward will tend to get many Mormons defensive. I imagine that some sort of response that said that you don’t feel comfortable traveling with your family this Sunday but you look forward to seeing everyone next Sunday – might work without stirring the hornets’ nest so bad.

I’m not disagreeing with you at all. I believe that Bishops might make no end of stupid decisions. I just don’t think that much progress is made when people are in siege mentality. (I’m also non-confrontational by nature)

I wouldn’t have gone if the official status was emergency travel only.

I wouldn’t have posted a challenge on Facebook, and I certainly wouldn’t have accused the Bishop of encouraging lawlessness.

You asked, so here is my honest assessment of the situation you described:

You both were wrong.

You both ought to change your actions in a situation like this.

I also think you are WAY over-reacting if you can’t go to church because you now classify everyone as lawbreakers. First stone and all that jazz.

I can’t speak for Curtis, but I believe he addressed your actions more than your feelings. From what I understand, he wouldn’t have done what you did (except he wouldn’t have gone to church either), nor would he have done what the bishop did. I also would not have gone to church, but I wouldn’t have posted about it, either and likely would have let it go. I believe my own bishop is wholly uninspired anyway, so his opinion is of little consequence to me.

I do understand your feelings that the members of your ward are hypocrites, at least in honoring and obeying the law, and that this incident has proven that to you. If you’re looking for a reason not to go to church, you’ve found it – but we here all know “It’s not that simple.” I am a bit of a hypocrite myself in that I say I don’t go to church because I have difficulty dealing with some of the things people say there in their dogmatic beliefs, yet I also say that I don’t really care what other believe and others can’t stand in the way of my own salvation. So, either you need to forgive the members, or at least overlook their human faults, or you need to do as you want and not go and be around them. Frankly, I’m not sure what kind of support you’re looking for.

Here is what I wrote.I didn’t out anyone.I just wanted to know the gospel and what we believe is true why did we break the law. Just for those who think I did a horrible thing putting this on facebook can you tell me where I CAN go to ask questions about what we believe if not here?

“I was up most of the night thinking about this. Are we not suppose to obey the law? Was it not the law to do what the police tell us? How do we explain to our children why you were on the road when you were told to stay off.We are not above the law. This has really affected me and brought me down more than I have been. It has confused me in a way most things have that ill never understand. Would someone let me know what law of the land Im suppose to obey and what law of the land Im not suppose to obey so i can have a clean Temple recommend. It doesn’t matter if the roads were clear yesterday or not we were told by our law enforcement to stay off. Anyone please help me understand so i can get past this . So who do we talk to about taking Article of Faith number 12 out of our beliefs. The part that says we sustain the law. I just can’t wrap my head around this. Im not upset at anyone just having trouble understanding what we teach and preach.”

First, I believe this is the place you can ask that type of question. Asking the question doesn’t guarantee an answer. I don’t know the answer, and I would have done what you did and stayed home. Let the people in your ward answer their own children’s questions. You tell your children that you stayed home because you believed it was unsafe to travel. Obviously some people in your ward believed differently, that’s their choice and you can tell your children that, too – heck, even tell them you love them more than others love their children and that’s why you decided to stay safe at home.

Second, I realize it’s not this one incident that’s the problem (“It’s not that simple.”). You apparently believe in the 12th AofF differently than some of your ward members. Largely this, like almost everything else, depends on our personal perspective. I am certain that if you and I had a discussion about your concept of God versus mine our concepts would be quite different. Likewise how I sustain my local leaders and even the president of the church is likely quite different than your way. That doesn’t mean one of us is wrong. My studies and my experiences have lead me to where I am just as yours have lead you to where you are. We can each believe and worship as we choose (that’s an AofF, too) and we could both be TR holding members and be totally comfortable that we have not lied. You need to not worry about about what other people believe. The church does indeed teach that we should honor and obey the law of the place where we live. How others do that is not up to you. You believe your bishop was wrong, I agree with you, beyond that it’s between him and God.

Third, If that’s what you posted on Facebook, I wouldn’t have done it. Facebook isn’t the place for that IMO. Saying this in private to the bishop or other local leader is one thing, publicly posting something like this is another. You just can’t post stuff like that on Facebook or TBM sites and not expect a backlash, and I’m sorry about that. As I said earlier, you can ask here, but that doesn’t mean anyone here will have the answer, either.

As a side note, I noticed you haven’t actually ever formally introduced yourself. Introductions help people here tremendously in multiple ways, only one of which is helping us understand where you’re coming from.

All that said, it’s up to others now. I’m not going to respond to this thread further because I’ve said all I have to say and I clearly don’t have an answer that’s acceptable to you.

I’m not going to respond anymore either.Its not what I thought it was.I do apologize.

angel333,

As to whether this is the right forum, what I’d say is that the general tone here is that, yeah, there are frustrating things that people in the church do and say, but the people here are trying to find peaceful resolution. Not in all things and not all the time, but at least most of the time it seems to be that way. But in doing so, we all understand that we can sometimes elevate frustrations to a point well beyond our ability to be successful in our endeavors to stay LDS. Much of the benefit of this community is in helping to find a balance. It simply does no good to be angry all the time at the Church or its members.

Your voice is welcome here. I hope you stay, because I think this community is strengthened by many voices, and I also think it can help you work through the issues you are having. FWIW, I have found this forum to be extremely helpful in my own situation. I appreciate the variety. I have learned so much in terms of coping in my own situation.

I was interested in your post about all this. You are trying to work through something frustrating. I think we can all relate to it. Your specific case is one we have all faced in general terms. But I also think that a post like this has to be more than a simple rant, or it has no value, either to the author or to the reader. So, usually, when people here post about frustrating experiences, it is because they are trying to work their way through it… to come to some acceptable place where they can continue to operate. Sometimes they are just cataloging their experiences and how they came to terms with it, or what they learned (see mackay11’s recent thread about his outburst at Church). Sometimes people are sincerely seeking the thoughts from others about how to temper their feelings (see joni’s recent post about being a woman in the temple). But, if their only purpose is to rant, then they typically find some ‘validation’ by people saying that they agree that it’s frustrating, but they also will find voices trying to offer ways to set it aside.

In that regard, when it comes to dealing with the things that people do or say in the Church, I can tell you that I find it helpful to put myself in “their” shoes and see it from “their” perspective sometimes. They are just living their faith, and I think this is a particularly bland example of hypocrisy… hell, I’ve seen far, far worse hypocrisy by religious people in and out of the Church, and I’ve come to a place in my life where I don’t let myself get wrapped around the axle because of it. My beliefs belong to me. To the extent that I feel spiritual enlightenment, it is by my own actions, not those of others.

I would not have gone to Church under the circumstances you described. I think your Bishop was wrong to say the roads where “fine”, but I can’t fault him for holding Church. Why? Because, as I said in my earlier post, I would go to a Super Bowl Party under those same conditions, so it would, in fact, be hypocritical of me to be angry at the Bishop. Ultimately, I believe it is important to live and let live. I wouldn’t have gone, others would. It makes absolutely no difference to me.

But onto the next element of all this. I have to tell you, there is zero chance I would have gone onto facebook to call the decision to hold services into question. The one and only thing I might have done on facebook, doubtful, but in the realm of possibility, is to say, “Well, those of you who are going, enjoy it, be safe, and I’ll see you next week.” Again, it comes down to the concept that my worship belongs to me yours belongs to you and theirs belongs to them.

Just to be completely clear, I believe your facebook post is easily interpreted as an attack. I’m sure you didn’t intend it that way, but that is the way it reads.

I think it is impossible to be happy or to reach spirituality in our own lives if we define ourselves by what we are NOT. Feeling anger at the faith of others is never going to end well, IMO. Rather, I think it is important to own our own faith and be at peace with it. If there is something I do or don’t do, but I feel right with God about it, then I don’t need to answer to anyone else about it, and just as importantly, I don’t need them to answer to me about it.