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I know I just wrote the “Paying it Forward” post yesterday morning, but today I’m struggling again. I guess that is the nature of this journey. Anyway, here’s my long post about my feelings today. DH has been out of the country for 3 ½ weeks and yesterday during our daily Skype, we had a great discussion about how we are each dealing with our faith transitions. His is much smaller than mine, and I think that is in part due to the fact the he converted as an adult and has seen life from the outside. He said that while he has questions and concerns, they pale in comparison to profound experiences he’s had in the church. He’s a good man.
I went to church afterwards, and as much as I tried to let them pass, there were things said that really bothered me. I came home to my quiet and empty house and decided to do some more soul searching. The result was that today I feel more confused and am tired of living the lie, but not ready to go public. I tried to have a long and honest conversation with the God that might be there, but got nothing. Here’s where I am:
1. The idea of God is ify for me right now because, if He exists, where is He? If He’s there, that sure isn’t getting through to me. The more confusing thing though is that the idea of no god doesn’t work for me either. I think I do believe in an all power force beyond mortal man. The idea of God our Father has always appealed to me, but it doesn’t seem to be working now. I have no idea how to reconcile these 2 ends of the spectrum.
2. I’ve always loved Jesus and His mission and teachings. The problem is, if there’s no God, how can there be a Son? Is Jesus just a good story, even if he was a real man, as Roy’s DD asked?
3. Because of how I feel about 1 & 2, then there’s no point in even looking at or worrying about the rest of it.
4. Part of me wants to tell anyone who’ll listen how I really feel about everything. The other part isn’t yet willing to accept the consequences that are sure to follow.
I would so love some advice on how to reconcile my “God” problem and get back on an even keel. Has anyone been able to do this really successfully? I thought I had, but no so. This is tearing me up today.
I’m sorry its tearing you up. Here are some questions I’ve thought through…maybe while you have a quiet house you can think through this…
Does it really matter to you if God exists or not? Why?
How does knowing that impact your day today, when you are sad or confused?
What is more important to your life today…certainty that God is in heaven, or the belief that God loves you?
Can you have faith in the idea of God so you don’t feel alone in the universe, even if you have to accept uncertainty and paradox while in this life?
If you want answers, are you asking the right questions?
Funny, I had a very similar thought to Heber13. I tend to think of God as a benign neglect kind of god when I think about it. There to comfort in a very unspecific way, not to provide our car keys or put a spouse in our path, but to help us have peace when we grieve. Beyond that, I love the teachings of Jesus, but I love them because they are relevant to how I live my life. Ultimately, WE are more important, this is our life, our time to “become” the person we can, to achieve our potential. God is maybe a comfort, an example, or whatever, but even parents don’t live our lives for us. We learn from them, but then we become adults, and we may still turn to them in need, but daily we are calling the shots. How we live our lives is the very important thing. For many, a belief in God becomes a way to distance themselves from taking ownership for their own decisions. “If God exists, or Mormonism is true, then I just have to do what I’m told.” Sorry to say, that’s not really a spiritual path. That’s not becoming like God. I also had an experience where I felt God let me down at the very moment that He would have known I needed it most. It was terrifying. I suddenly felt alone in the universe, I was afraid to drive and do routine things because the sense of a “safety net” that I had carried with me in the form of believing God would step in to protect me from things that were not supposed to happen to me – was gone. I rode the border of Atheism for a while. My disillusionment was severe. After a while I started to piece things together as I described in my intro. I know I don’t experience things the way many people in church do. I don’t see God as an intervening force in our lives to help us find lost keys and tell us to walk a different way to avoid harm. My concept of God has grown to become much more encompassing than that. As we say in the church we are children of God, we have the potential. I see seeds of divinity within each of us, I think we can look inward and find the comfort that our potential can give. Reality contains powerful truths, Love is an incomprehensible force when you get right down to it. Nature contains inexpressible beauty. God exists in the tangible for me, as well as what we can only imagine. I see God as the reality of everything that is important. I love what Hawk and Heber said, I think as a human race we will reach new heights as we learn to look inward.
Writer63: I feel for you. I feel that I could have written that post and like you, I have the conclusion that it is a journey with many ups and downs. I almost laughed when you wrote that somedays you want to tell everyone everything… I feel like that at times too. (Surprisingly I have told at least 9 of my really close TBM friends in the past 10 months who have loved me unconditionally .. all in hopes that I will come back with full belief as before, and I am OK with that.. but it really helped to feel loved even if I wasn’t a full believer. I am finding that LDS people spoken with individually are pretty freaking awesome. Do you have people that you are close to and have “come out to” and support you through this?
I also agree with hawkgirl
Quote:but even parents don’t live our lives for us. We learn from them, but then we become adults, and we may still turn to them in need, but daily we are calling the shots.
I feel that religion promotes a co-dependant relationship with God and can keep us as a child that never grows up if we don’t start to see God differently and or can keep us in a “victim” mentality. It feels amazing and horrible to shed this belief. I hope you will find peace in your journey.
PS. Curtis’s daughter wrote a poem that really helped me when I felt that I was losing my mind.
“Imagine If”
http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3098&hilit=+Imagine+if ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3098&hilit=+Imagine+if This poem helps me to remember that it is a journey of searching. I am a truth seeker.. and there is no end to the truth. I am impatient at times and I want it ALL NOW and/or I want it to end so I can be finished searching, but then I think… where is the fun in that?
I hope you will come post often and we can learn from each other and be a support to one another.
Excellent posts everyone. All helpful in some way. Heber13 wrote:
Quote:What is more important to your life today…certainty that God is in heaven, or the belief that God loves you?
I guess for me, these two have gone hand and hand. I’m going to focus less on God certainty and more on feeling God’s love. Maybe one stands in the way of the other. I’ll have to get back to you on that.
Hawkgrrrl says:
Quote:There to comfort in a very unspecific way, not to provide our car keys or put a spouse in our path, but to help us have peace when we grieve.
First off, I love how honest and provocative your posts always are. Thanks for that as honesty is vital in this process. What you said here gets at the heart of my struggle. I’ve been trying to think of God that way, but it’s not working anymore. To me, if this is all God is, then what’s the point? Mortals can provide that for me. For my whole life, I’ve had a loving Father who was beyond anything on this earth in wisdom and capacity for love. Prayer was so important to me. My children (who are all adults on their own) still come to me for advice and guidance, but what I can offer only goes to far sometimes. I love them more than I have the ability to describe, but I can’t count the times I’ve said, “pray about it” because their trials went beyond what I had the ability to answer. Now that praying about it isn’t even working for me, what do I tell them? Do you pray, Hawkgrrrl, and if so what form does it take?
Orson said:
Quote:I also had an experience where I felt God let me down at the very moment that He would have known I needed it most. It was terrifying. I suddenly felt alone in the universe, I was afraid to drive and do routine things because the sense of a “safety net” that I had carried with me in the form of believing God would step in to protect me from things that were not supposed to happen to me – was gone. I rode the border of Atheism for a while. My disillusionment was severe.
This is EXACTLY what happened to me when this all started. I could have written this exactly. It’s that feeling of the solid ground beneath your feet disintegrating. I thought I had worked through this long ago, but I think what I’ve done is just suppress those feelings. At times when I can’t do that, like now, it starts all over. For instance, DH is in a dangerous place. He has perfect confidence that God is protecting him. (I don’t, but I don’t tell him that). I’ve been so afraid that if there’s no God or if prayer isn’t real, something bad will happen to him. On a logical level I know that’s nuts, but unfortunately, this isn’t logical and my heart is winning out over my head.
Opentofreedom said:
Quote:I am finding that LDS people spoken with individually are pretty freaking awesome. Do you have people that you are close to and have “come out to” and support you through this?
Only DH knows about any of this. I’m not sure there is anyone else I would feel comfortable talking to, well maybe one person. Did you have any idea how people would react or did you just take the leap?
:silent: One thing that makes me keep my mouth shut right now is that one DS is getting married in the temple this summer. I won’t do anything to jeopardize the chance to be there, and that’s a comment for another thread.
🙄 writer63 wrote:I’ve been trying to think of God that way, but it’s not working anymore. To me, if this is all God is, then what’s the point?
I know it is very difficult to change your point of view. Don’t feel you have to rush, take your time. It was helpful to me simply to remain open to new points of view. You are in the middle of it, this right now is the most difficult time. Don’t feel you have to do anything today, simply look for small seeds of peace within.
For me I started to consider how the power of love can bind humanity together. I thought about how people pull together in hard times to help and lift each other. I know it is foreign to consider that connectedness as being God, but it may be helpful to just consider the goodness in humanity. I am simply sharing from my experience, that is all I have. This is also a form of prayer to me. It’s kind of funny but since I have removed words (for the most part) and the formal actions that I used to associate with prayer it has become more meaningful to me. For lack of better words I simply allow myself to feel connected. That is where I find peace. Best wishes to you.
You know, the funny thing is since I have developed a deeper connection with humanity I feel like (to some degree) I am able to be more charitable and Christlike toward my fellow men.
Don’t know if this will be helpful or not, but it’s my $0.02… I believe in a God that is aware and loving, etc., and I believe that I don’t understand His ways or reasons. I find that trying to put Him into my box of reasoning is very arrogant of me, somehow implying that I know how He should be treating me better than He does. I believe that one day, in the next life, if you will — or maybe even one day in this one — we will look back and it will make sense. We will see why we had to travel portions of the past alone without His help or His tangible presence. We will see how we were able to grow and stretch and change in those times, and how it actually worked for our good.
Using some of our favorite LDS stories (historical or not), Jesus was abandoned by His Father exactly at his moment of greatest need. Joseph Smith cried out for the presence of God while in Liberty Jail, asking “How long wilt thou suffer…” The fact that in your experience He seems to have left you to figure some things out on your own may just indicate that you are on the verge of a watershed moment in your spiritual journey, if you just see it through a little. Remember, Jesus also let Peter begin to sink before He rescued him.
Don’t know if this helps, but this is what helps me get through times like you’re describing. God bless.
Quote:The fact that in your experience He seems to have left you to figure some things out on your own may just indicate that you are on the verge of a watershed moment in your spiritual journey, if you just see it through a little.
Thanks for your $0.02. It’s worth more than that.
Just so everyone knows, I’ve been at this for 18 years. My original FC happened when the internet was in it’s infancy and lonnnng before this kind of thing was common. I say original because I went on a long and difficult journey and thought I had it figured out. I love the idea that maybe something even better is just around the corner if i don’t give up. I so hope for that.
I would love to hear some “watershed’ moments if anyone is willing to share.
Quote:Only DH knows about any of this. I’m not sure there is anyone else I would feel comfortable talking to, well maybe one person. Did you have any idea how people would react or did you just take the leap?
I didn’t know how they would react for sure, as I don’t KNOW anything..haha But these are dear friends of mine that know more than anyone on earth does. They have often provided a safe place for me in the past and I felt confident that they would here as well. I have two more REALLY close TBM friends that I have grown apart from because they just MIGHT? freak out.. so I have have put some distance between us. The hardest person I told, and the most recent, was my oldest sister. We are really close. She is now the only believing sibling I have.. I have heard her heartache and worry regarding my other siblings and we have often said that we are now the closest b/c we are the only ones left in the church. It terrified me to tell her and also that we might grow apart. I couldn’t have been more wrong about how I thought she would react…I couldn’t believe how she reacted. Just so much love it was over whelming. She also admitted to having doubts herself. But she can’t let herself go there b/c she adopted children from family that “chose” her and her husband b/c they would bring these children up LDS. So she feels more stuck. That was a shocking discovery to me.
I do have a close friend that now bears her testimony to me every chance she gets and that gets annoying, but I try really hard to see it as her love for me (and her fears and limitations of God, IMO).
It makes so much sense that you wouldn’t do anything to jeopardize your chance to see your sister be married in the temple. Probably very wise. I think when you are ready to “come out of the closet” it will just come naturally and fluidly. That has been my experience at least. When I opened up to people it just kind of happened, (for everyone except my sister.. I had to gather my nerves and then call her and start of with… “I need to talk to you about something.”). I hope you will find comfort at this time. A book that I read sometimes when I am confused about God is “Conversations with God” by Neil Donald Walsh. I take what he says with a grain of salt because this is HIS experience with God and I don’t see it as all truth, but it helps me to see God as much more open and accepting than I used to. (Although His perception of God gets kind of sarcastic at times which I don’t enjoy).. but overall, it has helped me formulate my own beliefs about who God is for me.
Quote:To me, if this is all God is, then what’s the point? Mortals can provide that for me.
To a point they can, but of course, it’s not an either / or proposition.
Quote:I can’t count the times I’ve said, “pray about it” because their trials went beyond what I had the ability to answer. Now that praying about it isn’t even working for me, what do I tell them? Do you pray, Hawkgrrrl, and if so what form does it take?
A couple of thoughts. I believe prayer works differently for different people and at different times in one’s life. I do pray, like a conversation. Sometimes it improves my mental clarity or gives me comfort. Sometimes it just makes me feel better. I do think for the most part prayer and meditation are similar: both calm the mind and improve our ability to make decisions and solve problems. But I also feel comforted in prayer when I have been very upset or down about something. To me, meditation doesn’t work quite the same in those cases. Meditation comes from a position of inner strength, but prayer comes from a position of inner turmoil. So I find prayer to work best for me when in turmoil.
Opentofreedon: thanks for sharing a very personal perspective. Quote:
It makes so much sense that you wouldn’t do anything to jeopardize your chance to see your sister be married in the temple.Just one thing to make clear, it’s my son, not my sister that’s getting married in the temple. I’m sure you can see the reason that makes the stakes higher. Sorry, I’m still getting used to the acronyms here.
Hawkgrrrl: My feelings about prayer have been very similar until very recently. I’m probably over thinking this and should go back to what has worked before. I remember the liberating feeling I had when I dropped the “prayer formula” we’re taught in church and just started talking to God, a real conversation. If God is real and omniscient, He knows my thoughts and feelings anyway.
baldzach wrote:I find that trying to put Him into my box of reasoning is very arrogant of me, somehow implying that I know how He should be treating me better than He does. …we will look back and it will make sense. We will see why we had to travel portions of the past alone without His help or His tangible presence. We will see how we were able to grow and stretch and change in those times, and how it actually worked for our good.
I do agree with that.
baldzach wrote:Using some of our favorite LDS stories (historical or not), Jesus was abandoned by His Father exactly at his moment of greatest need. Joseph Smith cried out for the presence of God while in Liberty Jail, asking “How long wilt thou suffer…” The fact that in your experience He seems to have left you to figure some things out on your own may just indicate that you are on the verge of a watershed moment in your spiritual journey, if you just see it through a little. Remember, Jesus also let Peter begin to sink before He rescued him.
I also appreciate the point that those stories make. I feel a need however to clarify the personal experience that I referred to: When the topic IS faith, and the question is “do You exist?” at a critical moment in your life when a wise and loving God would surely
knowthat a specific circumstance, event, sign, response or answer, however you want to word it — would result in the destruction of the prior view or hope of God; it then becomes virtually impossible to hold up the weight of that collapsing view by the force of your individual will alone. At some point, somewhere, you either find a trace of the evidence that you need …or you are left completely in the dark. I realize many members cannot even grasp the idea of complete darkness, because it is foreign to their experience. The point that “this is the way God wanted it” is valid, and I can’t see that he wants every human being to view Him in the same way. It is an obviously absurd idea anyway, we all have different personalities and couldn’t possibly conceptualize God in exactly the same way.
I will endlessly strive for the point that “God is in the reality” but I simply can’t go back to seeing God as the most loving being imaginable that is also capable of selective intervention; rewarding at times the undeserving while denying the pure and needy. That concept of God does not merit worship. My experience leaves me with the view that God cannot personally reach us with his own hand while we are on earth – much the way a parent cannot aid a child that is away, but we can sometimes “feel” the connection even though we are on our own. I believe in revelation and inspiration, as imperfect as our human translation may be.
writer63 wrote:I guess for me, these two have gone hand and hand. I’m going to focus less on God certainty and more on feeling God’s love. Maybe one stands in the way of the other. I’ll have to get back to you on that.
Good response. I just think I want to believe God is there. I don’t have to wait until I’m certain He is there for me to believe He loves me. I find a lot of power if belief and faith in the unseen or known. Walking by faith has led me to many very very good outcomes. So I won’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, but as some of the other threads recently have pointed out…I believe, while having pockets of unbelief and want help figuring those puzzle pieces out as a go.
The doubt on if God exists seems to be at the heart of it all. It’s a big one. But there are many things in the world, in the church, in our lives that are enough to make me believe He does love me…even while I’m figuring out what or where or who He exactly is. I won’t wait to see Him to believe in Him.
Quote:One thing that makes me keep my mouth shut right now is that one DS is getting married in the temple this summer. I won’t do anything to jeopardize the chance to be there, and that’s a comment for another thread.
🙄
You are wise to think about this in this very way. You only get one chance to see that and be there for your DS. Its worth suspending some issues to make that the priority, if you can.Oh, sorry, you wrote that right… I read it wrong. sorry. Yes, that raises the stakes quite a bit.
Heber13 wrote:You are wise to think about this in this very way. You only get one chance to see that and be there for your DS. Its worth suspending some issues to make that the priority, if you can.
I agree.
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