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Many years ago, my oldest daughter died due to flu related complications. 11 months later our youngest died. She was diagnosed as a diabetic. An insulin drip was started and the staff dropped her blood sugar too fast. She had a seizure that herniated her brain stem. Three years later, I had another child who was born with a horrific heart condition. She had open heart surgery , had two more surgeries in her future and a 50% chance of making it to age 5. She was doing well .. And died very unexpectedly at home in her sleep. Being a SAHM, my identity was my children. PTA board, primary president, piano lessons, soccer coach, baseball team. Suddenly, I didn’t have a child in the school anymore. No piano lessons. No soccer. No baseball. People were kind through the first loss. They were kind through the second .. But stunned. When our third child died, people just didn’t know what to say — so they sent a card, dropped off some food, and talked less. There were no words left to comfort us. Huge financial losses accompanied that time in our lives. We went from a successful young couple with a chunk of money in the bank and a plan for DH to run for state rep — to desperately poor with people sending us money to help with expenses.
I have a daughter who went through all of this with us. She lost her big sister, her little sister, then her baby sister.
We later had one more child. She is 14 now.
I went back to school after the first two kids died. Graduated with that second degree as the baby died. Went onto graduate school and residency right after having a last subsequent child. I have pursued a professional career. To go back to having my entire identity as motherhood? Not gonna happen.
When my first two were given healing blessings, I had a horrible gut wrenching feeling. But with the baby, I felt uplifted through all of it. I felt carried by God. It is the only way I could have functioned through all of it — was feeling uplifted and carried. And then she died. Unexpectedly. I felt ripped off And lied to. I lost trust in God. I lost trust in that basic feeling of the Holy Spirit’s assurance.
All that being stated, I have done really well for a really long time through all of this. For years. Active in the church. Very involved.
Over the years, we have gotten comments:
“Isn’t it great that they died before they turned 8?”
“Wow, maybe God took them because they might have gown up and become prostitutes”
“This happened to you because you are strong enough to handle it”
“God never give you more than you can handle”
“Don’t you think we all picked our burdens in the Pre-existence?”
“My cat died, and it was terrible. I know how you feel”
“Losing a spouse would be worse, don’t ya think? You were lucky to lose children”
There are good people in the world, but there are also a lot of people who are just clueless. We have recognized that these comments are not meant to be mean — just clueless people. I’ve been able to roll with it.
Fast forward to now .. My Faith Crisis. I am having two problems:
My friends are having grandchildren. Their children are graduating and marrying and creating that legacy of family that is so promoted in LDS culture. And my arms are empty all over again. And it hurts all over again in a different way.
Yes .. I have two living children. But I still see my three children who are gone, and I miss them.
Second problem:
My barely 14 year old is brilliant. She maxed out the PSAT this fall as a 13 yo. She is taking physics, biology, astronomy, Algebra 2, English lit, English grammar/comp, history, and world geography. 8 cores classes at school, early morning seminary, and two online classes so that she can move up to be a Junior next year. And she is kind, sympathetic, and empathetic .. Just very socially awkward . And she needs to lose 20 pounds.
Our ward is affluent. The focus is on football, band, cheerleading, and dance team. Our daughter isn’t an easy fit. The kids are not mean .. They just shun her. Some of the adult leaders shun her. Outside of church meetings, she has never been asked to ANY social event. When I discuss it with adult leaders, I am told that people are going to like who they like — that it cannot be changed.
Our bishop has a son with drug issues. His statement was,”if my son with good social skills could not do well in this ward, what hope is there for your daughter?”
I am so disgusted with the ward. Disgusted with the bishop. Disgusted with the church. The more history I read, the less I want to have with the organization of the church. I still believe in God and I know there is good in the church. There are good people in our ward .. They just don’t have kids in the youth program.
This is a rant … But as I contemplate church attendance tomorrow, I just want to vomit.
And my husband and daughter would love to have me attend.
Where do I put the anger?
Quote:Where Do I Put The Anger
On paper.
One of the most healing techniques I have found is writing, hard, raw writing. Grab a note pad, or stack of paper and a pen. Don’t do it on computer or keyboard. Then write – write it all – exactly as you feel it. The anger, the rage. Use swear words, don’t worry about spelling or punctuation, just vomit on the page with your pen. Keep writing, don’t stop to read it, don’t lift the pen to fix it. Just unleash. Write till your hand can’t hold on any more. Let the tears flow, everything. Name calling is fine, chastising God is fine (prophets of old have done it, no worries). Touch the fire fully.
You may have to do this daily for along time, because you carry a deep and worthy grief. Allow yourself to wallow in it as boldly as you want. After each session, throw out the page, rip it, crunch it, tear it up, but throw it out.
In time the rage will give way to new insights, to freedom, to hope. I promise. I haven’t had your experiences, but I stumbled across this years ago during a very dark period, and it was miraculous in it’s own way. Later I learned that it is a therapy tool and is taught in many areas for a way to let grief heal. Over the years I’ve passed it along to people, most everyone says it works for them. The working is unique. I can’t promise you what you will feel, as the pain gives way – each persons experience has been different that I have talked to, but each finds a new strength to go on.
Please don’t read this last line as trite – I find you remarkable. How strong you are, how human, and Godly. Thank you for sharing your very personal grief with us.
Amateurparent, I’m really not so sure why you chose that name for this forum when it sounds like to me that you have put your entire soul into parenting. That type of love and support for your kids is really what it’s all about and from what you say, I wish there were more parents around like you. I can’t even begin to feel the pain and difficulty that you have experienced and my heart truly goes out to you. I applaud your drive to continue on through such adversity.
As far as advice to give, that is often cheap and unhelpful as you well know from the “comforting” statements of friends and ward members you listed. I only can tell you what worked for me in some of my own challenging times. Maybe some of this can help or at least give you some ideas that might work.
I really like mom3’s idea of writing. Twenty-five years ago this last January, my first wife, passed away from cystic fibrosis. As a young college student, I was devastated. Over the next week or so, I wrote and wrote about what happened to her and it truly helped me work through my issues and grief.
Fast forward to my marrying again and having three kids. I have twin daughters – one is completely normal but her twin has cerebral palsy and will be fully dependent on us for care – forever. It is painful to know that she was healthy all the way up to birth time, but a botched delivery caused her brain damage and disability. It was devastating and we could do little more than cry about it, but somehow we carried on.
At some point, we spoke in church and as part of her talk, my wife, in an effort to help others understand what it was like to have a child with a disability, read this:
http://www.our-kids.org/archives/Holland.html . I still feel emotional when I read it, but I don’t believe it necessarily applies to just being a parent of a child with a disability. I really think it applies more to any situation where you have hopes and dreams for your children that get shattered. You are left to pick up the pieces but hopefully find new beauty along the way. I can’t imagine what losing three children has been like – it is very sad to me but I am hopeful that you can find comfort and peace as you move forward with your family as it is now.Your 14 year old sounds awesome! That sure is a hard age to be in. My youngest, who will now graduate from high school this year really struggled with it. She did not feel like she belonged and she got very hurt by being somewhat dropped by a friend. She was painfully shy. She asked my wife if she could have counseling (thankfully, we took her to someone objective and outside the church).
We also had to help her find her niche where should could feel accepted. She ended up in karate on mutual nights. It was a much better confidence booster than attending the church activities would have been at that time. I’m sure some people must have said some things behind my back about my daughter not going to the youth activities, especially since I was a counselor in the bishopric. Whatever.
You don’t always have to “make” your kids go to the youth activities the church offers. I’m in favor or getting them involved in something that will help them make friends and feel accepted. Contrary to what many of the TBMs believe, that setting is not necessarily at church functions.
Please hang in there and know that there are plenty of people who say their piece without any knowledge or understanding of what you are going through. It is unfortunate that your bishop is doing that. My prayers are with you along with the people who will read your post on this forum.
Welcome. I’m sorry for your losses and I’m sorry you had to endure those hurtful comments. amateurparent wrote:Where do I put the anger?
If you put the anger somewhere it will still be around, waiting to return. At least that’s been my experience. The first thing that came to my mind was to dilute it.
An earthquake and subsequent tsunami caused a nuclear disaster at the Fukushima plant in Japan, deadly radioactive material leaked out of the reactor. The various materials that leaked out of the reactor have different half-lives, most of the material has either a half-life of 8 days or 30 years but some of the material has a half-life of up to 24,000 years. Very toxic stuff that remains hazardous for a long, long time. This material leaked into the Pacific Ocean. The Pacific Ocean diluted the material making it far less concentrated and less hazardous as a result. It may have even diluted the hazardous materials to relatively normal background levels of radiation.
So my answer would be to dilute it, make the anger lose its potency. Yes, there may be some residual anger but once diluted it wont be as intense as the original. I
reallylike mom3’s suggestion of writing it down and crumpling/burning/destroying the pages afterwards, that’s certainly a more healthy approach than I’ve taken in the past (my Pacific Ocean has often been DW, sorry about that DW). I also probably got caught up in spreading my anger as opposed to diluting it. mom3’s suggestion is awesome in that I believe it truly can dilute anger as opposed to simply spreading it. Best wishes to you on your journey of life. Let us be your Pacific Ocean.
Wow – that is quite a story. I too have felt a lot of anger toward the church….for different reasons. I have a few tips.
1. Don’t put the anger into your church meetings or local relationships. Put it here for expression and exploration.
2. I have a journal I purchased for my desktop computer. I put it there sometimes, although I find I have a hard time reading it in the future because it seems so negative.
3. Redirect it into positive relationships in the community. Most people here know that I now serve in a non-profit that improves a blighted business district, attracting new businesses, helping business owners succeed, running a committee, board meetings with little structure. Unlike the church. I’ve grown in leaps and bounds in the last 10 months and its phenomenal. I’ve made mistakes, had some great successes, and come back from meetings completely fulfilled. The world needs your talents — and guess what — it allows you pick where to put them!!!
4. Put your energy into things you can do at church that are productive. I have read several books, done all the thinking and textbook reading for PhD assignments, and even taken time to sit in a nice park outside the church to reflect and read during certain meetings I find hard to take. No one knows…I sometimes go for a drive and then rejoin my family.
It doesn’t have to be about the church all the time. If you are feeling angst about the church, consider minimizing its place in your life, while still being there enough to support your family. That is my plan, and that is how it is working for me…parts might work for you.
Good luck, and post often…
SD
New Light: My standard excuse to my children when I mess up is that I am an Amateur Parent. I do not hold any advance degrees in parenting … That I do my best, but I am not a Professional Parent. I am just an Amateur, trying to do the best I can. It makes then laugh. They know I try really hard.
I too like the Holland vs Italy story. It is truly a classic. And explains so well the alternative journey we are on. As we have looked at alternative activities, we have steered away from anything that conflicted with YW .. I like the idea of giving ourselves permission to do what is right for DD .. Instead of focusing on attendance in a miserable social event.
Mom3:
I had to smile when I read your advice on writing. I have given that advice to many people over the years. And then I forgot to apply it to my own life. Thank you for the very well written reminder. I had not thought about throwing it away. I REALLY like that.
(((amateurparent))) I believe that to be the symbol for an internet hug – not as helpful as a real one, I know. I am very sorry for the loss of your three beautiful children. The stillbirth of our youngest daughter was the catalyst for my own FC. While it is not the same, I hope some of my experiences and the lessons I’ve derived from them might be helpful to you in some ways.
The looong version of my experience can be found here:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1937 In that thread, I’ve also linked to several other sources that I found helpful.
Quote:When my first two were given healing blessings, I had a horrible gut wrenching feeling. But with the baby, I felt uplifted through all of it. I felt carried by God. It is the only way I could have functioned through all of it — was feeling uplifted and carried. And then she died. Unexpectedly. I felt ripped off And lied to. I lost trust in God. I lost trust in that basic feeling of the Holy Spirit’s assurance.
So this was my tipping point, it would have been so easy for God to inspire us or the Dr. that something was wrong before it was too late. I was a faithful LDS priesthood holder going forward with full confidence that God will be looking out for me and mine as one of his relatively few choice and loyal sons. At first, I wondered if I hadn’t been good enough to warrant the promised blessings but over time I began to re-examine the righteousness = blessings paradigm and I find that it no longer works for me.
Quote:All that being stated, I have done really well for a really long time through all of this. For years. Active in the church. Very involved.
We, on the other hand, went off the relative deep end. My HT visited me with concerns. I shared with him my questioning and he shared with me the stagecoach driver story (the one that gets hired because he stays so far away from the edge – the moral of the story seems to be that questioning is dangerous, so don’t question). We went in for tithing settlement. I hadn’t made a payment since our loss. Bishop agreed that many members over-literalize the promised blessings, but he felt that we had made commitments to the church at baptism and we were bound by our integrity to keep them come hell or high water. He then confiscated my TR. The following Sunday he talked on tithing and equated it to fire insurance (so apparently the only blessing we can count on for paying tithing is to not get “burned” by God ).
About a year after we lost our daughter we stopped going to the LDS church and started going to another. I was the ward mission leader and DW the Primary President at the time. We were really drawn to the depiction of God as someone who heals the broken. For perhaps the first time in our life, all of our well laid plans seemed so precarious. We were broken and needed healing.
One of my co-workers shared with me how Bishop was using us as an object lesson (without naming us specifically) to teach how God will test and try each of us and that it is our response to these trials that reveal our worth. She was very concerned for our eternal welfare in how we were “failing” our test.
About the same time, I discovered StayLDS and then we moved. We took advantage of the opportunity to return to LDS attendance in a new area and keep in the relative background.
When the statute of limitations approached for us to file civil suit it was very hard for us. My sister (the lawyer) wanted to sue. There had certainly been trouble indicators that had been missed but I wasn’t sure that it rose to the level of malpractice. In sharing our quandary with a trusted friend she replied “Why would you want to sue? It’s not like you’re not going to have your daughter again in the eternities anyway.” In that statement she dismissed all our pain as though it would be completely rational to not even be sad.
I believe that many people live in a mental framework that is very uncomfortable with death and dying (I know that I was). I believe that when these people are confronted with such hard examples that don’t sit well with their worldview they react defensively. The defensive maneuver may be to keep their distance or it might manifest itself in saying stupid things that justify, minimize, or dismiss the tragic situation. I believe that how they react is much more about them than it is about you and your pain.
Quote:My friends are having grandchildren. Their children are graduating and marrying and creating that legacy of family that is so promoted in LDS culture. And my arms are empty all over again. And it hurts all over again in a different way.
Yes .. I have two living children. But I still see my three children who are gone, and I miss them.
This is normal. The pain will return periodically. Maybe not as intense as before but still there. It is part of the grieving process – a process that I believe will be ongoing for the rest of your life.Second problem: I’ll just throw these out as broad ideas for the sake of brevity. When our oldest daughter was 6 and being bullied/shunned at church we changed wards and blamed it on my work schedule.
We have also worked hard to diversify our daughter’s friend base. When DD has her birthday party and has a dozen invited guests only 2 are from church, another 3 or 4 are from school, and the remainder are friendships from different clubs/programs that we participate in. I realize that this is easier said than done especially with social awkwardness but I believe the principle of not having all your friends in one basket is sound.
amateurparent wrote:Our ward is affluent. The focus is on football, band, cheerleading, and dance team. Our daughter isn’t an easy fit. The kids are not mean .. They just shun her. Some of the adult leaders shun her. Outside of church meetings, she has never been asked to ANY social event. When I discuss it with adult leaders, I am told that people are going to like who they like — that it cannot be changed.
I myself never felt like I fit in with the LDS kids and was never invited to their private functions. I believe that the youth, or the parents, or the adult leaders could do much to change things … but like most of us they are probably too busy living their own lives to give it much attention. So while I disagree that it cannot change, it seems likely that it will not change.I also believe that sometimes one good friend can make all the difference. We try to keep our eyes open for people that are new or otherwise in need of friends. As a general rule I find that people that need friends make better friends themselves.
All that being said – In many ways I am more “amateur” than you, both in parenting and in life. These are just experiences and ideas that have applied to my life. Your mileage may vary.
Nibbler: “An earthquake and subsequent tsunami caused a nuclear disaster at the Fukushima plant in Japan, deadly radioactive material leaked out of the reactor. The various materials that leaked out of the reactor have different half-lives, most of the material has either a half-life of 8 days or 30 years but some of the material has a half-life of up to 24,000 years. Very toxic stuff that remains hazardous for a long, long time. This material leaked into the Pacific Ocean. The Pacific Ocean diluted the material making it far less concentrated and less hazardous as a result. It may have even diluted the hazardous materials to relatively normal background levels of radiation”That is beautifully stated. I really like that.
In the midst of trying times, I felt radioactive.. And just waiting for at least one half life to dispel some of the pain. Eventually, I felt like I had moved through my grief and came out the other side a different person, but an intact person.
Dealing with my youngest daughter’s social issues has brought up so many grief issues that I thought were resolved. I love the idea of there just being a different half life. That analogy works for me on a number of levels.
SilentDawning:
When I lost my first child, I threw myself into renovation. I painted everything. And tiled. Gutted two bathrooms. Hard physical labor was helpful. With the second loss, I added volunteer work. I felt like I was on the board of about every non-profit in town. President of the County Auxiliary. VP position for the state in another, Volunteer of the Year for a service organization.
Eventually, my friends started sending me books and calendars for “Women Who Do Too Much”.
Eventually, the sheer action of staying busy was not enough. I had to take time to just feel the raw emotion.
This time in my life seems to be round two of just feeling and processing emotion. I haven’t felt a need to volunteer right now. I mean, I do normal rational amounts of volunteer work now … But not hyper-drive mode.
Thank you for your suggestions. Maybe it is time to get outside of myself a little bit.
Roy: There was a time in my life before tragedy that I thought tragedy only happened to other people. I assumed God would whisper in my ear and warn me before anything horrible could happen to me or my family.
Now , that attitude looks so shallow
But I also thought God was kinda like Santa Claus .. You ask for rational things and they showed up all wrapped in pretty bows.
Reality is harder.
So sorry to hear about the death of your baby. What a terrible loss.
We never sued .. It wasn’t going to give us anything that we valued. And it would’ve complicated grieving even more.
Hugs back to you.
amateurparent wrote:There was a time in my life before tragedy that I thought tragedy only happened to other people. I assumed God would whisper in my ear and warn me before anything horrible could happen to me or my family.
Now , that attitude looks so shallow
But I also thought God was kinda like Santa Claus .. You ask for rational things and they showed up all wrapped in pretty bows.
Reality is harder.
That pretty much sums it up. I too had felt that it “only happened to other people.” I believe that some of the dumb things people say is for the purpose of maintaining just that kind of illusion.
amateurparent wrote:We never sued .. It wasn’t going to give us anything that we valued. And it would’ve complicated grieving even more.
We didn’t sue either. Just the prospect of it was emotionally volatile to the point that it began to affect my work. On one side, I could imagine a court win to be validating – as if the court is recognizing our loss. However, a court loss might be my biggest fear because it could be seen as a dismissal of our loss, a vindication of the Dr.’s performance, and a further condemnation of the parental role. (Not that I think courts work that way but with DW already feeling much too responsible – I just couldn’t take the chance.)
I hope StayLDS is helpful for you. It has kept me sane… Mostly.
:crazy: Hi amateurparent, I am so sorry for your loss. I think I sort of know what kind of experience you’re talking about with the ward, because I was in a ward like that–the kind of ward that has mostly very affluent people, very busy with their myriad activities, often standoff-ish. In that ward, I saw at least two young women who had no friends. The other young women who shunned them had parents that were regarded (whether rightly or wrongly) as good Latter-Day Saints.
In all the time that I’ve been a member of the Church (two decades as a convert), I have only once heard a talk where the speaker had a sad ending. Their child died. Usually these talks end with “and then everything turned out great in the end.” I have always wanted to ask them, “What about the other people who die?” I think it is inherently very frightening for Latter-Day Saints to think about tragedy where there is no easy pat answer. You will notice, too, that even GA’s and apostles tend to avoid talks with sad or unknown outcomes, with the notable exception of BKP’s mention of the Japanese boy on the train platform who was left out in the cold as the future Elder Packer struggled to get out some money for him but the train started moving.
It’s ok to be angry. I’ve been angry at a lot of people and even the Church. I’m not angry anymore but it was understandable back then because there is such a contrast between the promise of the true church and the reality of how unenlightened a lot of it is. Just try to focus on the positive–the few members who are truly compassionate and exhibit the LDS sense of charity as pure love (even my old ward had a few).
There is no easy explanation for the obtuseness and the pat answers (that you listed examples of). But part of it, I think, is generational. I have noticed that LDS people who were born in the Church prior to about 1970 and especially before 1960 were taught a lot of explanatory doctrine. Perhaps the most harmful example being the idea that people’s birth circumstances reflect what they deserved from lack of valiance in the premortal existence. Many of the insensitive comments that you’ve heard are probably coming from people who heard these explanations growing up. I believe that the Saints born after 1980 are far less prone to this kind of insensitivity because the Church to its credit has made sure to stop (officially) teaching these kinds of explanatory doctrines.
As for your child’s predicament in the youth program, I can only say that I know it will get better when she’s a grown up in the church among adults who have testimonies. I don’t have any children, but I have taught the youth, and I notice that the youth include by default people who have no testimony and will never have one. They will not be around after the age of 18. There are others who will grow up and discover the meaning of the Gospel, then they will be sorry that they mistreated someone. Still there are others who probably never meant to shun someone but didn’t have the courage to do anything about it, or perhaps they were not observant enough to realize that it was happening.
I hope that helps a bit. Keep posting, and let us know how you are coping.
amateurparent wrote:Nibbler:
Quote:
SilentDawning:When I lost my first child, I threw myself into renovation. I painted everything. And tiled. Gutted two bathrooms. Hard physical labor was helpful. With the second loss, I added volunteer work. I felt like I was on the board of about every non-profit in town. President of the County Auxiliary. VP position for the state in another, Volunteer of the Year for a service organization.
Eventually, my friends started sending me books and calendars for “Women Who Do Too Much”.
Eventually, the sheer action of staying busy was not enough. I had to take time to just feel the raw emotion.
This time in my life seems to be round two of just feeling and processing emotion. I haven’t felt a need to volunteer right now. I mean, I do normal rational amounts of volunteer work now … But not hyper-drive mode.
Thank you for your suggestions. Maybe it is time to get outside of myself a little bit.
Well, it sounds like you have gone beyond my own current coping mechanisms. It sounds like you are achiever like I am…tried the volunteer route, and are still looking for peace. I have often thought that putting my energy into my children (moreso than currently) could be another way of dulling the pain of the weak church experience. There are times, too, when I just want to think about non-work, non-service, non-everything things — like things that I have always wanted to do. Occasionally, I will rent a hotel and go there by myself and enjoy the peace and pampering of the room service and housekeeping. If you are an introvert, that could be rejuvinating However, you know best…
You’ve been through so much. Reading your story puts my complaints in their place, and I wish I had something truly helpful to offer. Thinking about your daughter. It’s still down the road, but several kids in our extended family weren’t good fits in their high school worlds, either, and graduating early helped
a bit. Dear Amatureparent, Your post realigned my perspective, and I needed that. Thank you for reminding not to get annoyed with my grown up DS’s sometimes.
I wish I knew a way to help other than to say that I’m awestruck by the truly remarkable person you are. I mean that sincerely.
I’m sorry to hear about your empty arms. Just wondering, are there grand-darlings in your future? I think you said in another post that you have a married daughter.
I second ( or third or fourth) the writing idea. It’s done a world of good for me. I had a therapist tell me once that it’s one of the most effective ways to minimize a mountain of emotion down to a pile of dust. I agree.
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