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I have believed all my life in the literalness of: The First Vision, Adam and Eve, the Book of Mormon, the translation of the plates, the story of Job, and so on and so on. In Primary, Sunday School, Sacrament Meeting, and as a missionary (full time, ward, and stake), I was either taught these things or taught them to others. I taught them to my children. I believed Joseph Smith literally saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. I believed Moroni was actually in JS’s room. I believed there really did exist a man named Job who went through an unusual amount of trials.
Weren’t all of you taught these same things? Did I miss something along the way where it was a given that all of these things were figurative and symbolic only? Did I completely and totally misunderstand everything? Where in the manuals and missionary discussions that I taught out of did it refer to all of this as figurative or symbolic only?
Yesterday I began reading recent threads and my mind is officially blown. I thought I was making ‘progress’ in my faith journey… and now I wonder what is real?
I know when I listen to certain music or am out in nature or feel & express love, I am moved to tears and feel a massive tug on my heart strings.
I know that when I look up at the stars and moon at night I feel a huge sense of belonging.
When I think of my father who has slipped through the veil, I somehow know I will see him again.
I feel promptings & and hear whisperings.
Beyond that, I don’t know anymore what is real.
That is a very uncomfortable place to be, and I am right there with you. Except I don’t feel any kind of promptings or communication of any kind. Most of the time this no longer bothers me. I have decided what is meaningful in my life, and I’m seeking those things. I am open to the possibility that all of this mythology is true, but I doubt it. I guess we may find out for sure when we die. For here and now, I just move forward and do what is important now. I hope you can get to a point where you can be okay with not knowing everything like you use to think you did. I use to think that the best part of the gospel was that it had an answer for everything. Now I think that was arrogance. I am glad to believe that the universe is still a mystery. I don’t know. Sometimes I question reality itself. If I’m living in the Matrix, or this is just a dream, then my religion is just as imaginary as anything else that exists in my mind, it still seems real to me. Meditation has helped me a little, just letting go of everything that may or may not exist, at least I know that I am breathing. It sounds small, but it helps. Plus, I realize that nobody else out there knows what is real any more or less than I do. We’re all on a level playing field, sometimes we just think we know more than we actually do.
Losing certainty can be scary – but I believe it also is the only path to rediscovering pure faith. Another central Gospel paradox. I don’t know, when it comes right down to it, what has been literal, symbolic, figurative, mythological, etc. – or, even, at the heart of it all, what “real” means in any objective way. If it’s in my head, is it any less real – at least for me? When my mother’s medication wore off and her schizophrenia took over, we called her visions “hallucinations” – but I guarantee they were every bit as “real” for her at that moment as what I saw around me. Therefore, I take everything in whatever way resonates the best within myself – meaning I worship / believe / interpret according to the dictates of my own conscience, let others worship differently than I.
It’s quite liberating, and I think it’s one of the highest aims of Mormon theology – to find / build one’s own faith and live it. That might be my own misunderstanding of reality, but it’s mine, so I accept and own it.
I’m so sorry with what your going through. I can empathize. I was fortunate to already be familiar with inside workings of public relations to know in any government, work or organization there is an official history and version of what happened. Naturally it’s very selective as each government, organization is by nature very sensitive to how it is perceived.
In fact that is each their top priority number 1 in each. It doesn’t mean there isn’t truth there, but rather selective by nature. It has less to do with church or religion and more about human and cooperate, government nature.
So when I came across it it bothered me less then most, but it had bothered me as much when I first worked in and studied American and world history. As well as friends from various government agencies sharing and showing things that surprised me. I over time became very comfortable with ambiguity. I don’t need answers. I just need to search , study and test with my own eyes now. I think of it as becoming a man, independent, not needing others to provide me with answers. I will study, test, ponder and experience in my own now.
But it takes times to be comfortable with uncertainty. I maintain that at any point in time I see different results and experiences and test that I am free to change my mind at any time in any subject.
But for those still needing certainty, with regards to especially history or official history in any part. There really isn’t any.
I always reflect back to Moroni chapter 7 and I think that encompasses nearly everything I hold dear as core values.
Others can feel free to be dogmatic in what ever beliefs. What really matters to me is faith(not in any man), hope that we will get there in time together as a journey process, and charity toward my fellow man/women and children, creatures.
I’m very happy with that belief and Moroni assures me it is very Mormon, not so much what each individual holds or insist to be true. But that I am true to my heart in faith, hope in him and charity toward him and all life.
Indeed in that light I do”stand all amazed”. I can look for the good fruit where ever I can find it and celebrate with those around me at it. Whom ever and where ever they are.
That is my purpose. I hope you can find yours. Purpose and happiness is not something that can be given or taught, you have to find it for yourself–hopefully with guidance and help by others. But they can’t give or teach it to you. It comes from within.
hope, symbolism is a very powerful medium. “What is real?” isn’t as important as “What does it mean?”
I understand you. You are right, the Church teaches all these things as real. Yet, even as a still-believing member of the Church, I had come to think of certain elements as only symbolic: Job, Kolob, The Book of Revelation. If you reflect for a moment, you probably already subconsciously have accepted some elements as symbolic without specifically thinking about it. I mean, even faithful members, if they think about it, probably don’t think a snake literally spoke to Eve… talking snake… and that God cursed all snakes to have to go around on their bellies and eat dust. How about the 9-foot tall Goliath… really? Methuselah living to be 969 years old? A dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns?
If you are game, here’s an exercise: pick up the Book of Abraham. Skim chapter 3 quickly. Think about Kolob and the stars and how just plain bizarre it is. Think about whether you feel uplifted knowing about Kolob. Think to yourself if you’d like to have to explain this “doctrine” to your friends. Now read the chapter carefully, but this time, assume it is a purely symbolic construct. What does it say? Is it more simple to think of it in purely symbolic terms? How does thinking of it as symbolic actually strengthen the content of the chapter?
Exercise 2: Quick, when Jesus was baptized, did the Holy Ghost descend from heaven as a dove literally or figuratively? Now, which is it? Think about it. Does it help to know that the Gospels don’t agree? Then think for awhile whether it matters one way or the other. If it was a literal dove, then why would God do that? If it wasn’t then why would the writers of Mark, Matthew and John use that figurative language? Then, you realize that it is the same message either way.
hope wrote:I have believed all my life in the literalness of: The First Vision, Adam and Eve, the Book of Mormon, the translation of the plates, the story of Job, and so on and so on.
…
Weren’t all of you taught these same things?
Thanks for the post – it resonates with me. Yes, I was taught these were all literal. In fact my knee jerk reaction is to hear talks or lessons and to think “this is all supposed to be literal.” Maybe it’s my engineering training, maybe it’s the way I was raised, maybe my orchestra is missing a few violins, but my perception is that these teachings are meant to be literal. It’s taken a lot of mental effort to convince myself that I can interpret doctrine as I see fit.
hope wrote:
I know when I listen to certain music or am out in nature or feel & express love, I am moved to tears and feel a massive tug on my heart strings.
As a music lover, I feel closer to God when I hear a piece of music performed well. The MOTAB inspires me and I appreciate a hymn well played on Sundays. I believe music is one of God’s gifts to mankind.
hope wrote:
I know that when I look up at the stars and moon at night I feel a huge sense of belonging.
Agree 100%.
Children of god teach a lot of “weird” things. Yes any things taken literary today were also believed in literally long ago and at the same time it wasn’t as dogmatic in the beginning when things were first written and talked. It simply wasn’t viewed as important I those times weather it was or not. The story itself is what was important. That’s why in the scriptures you do see things like “dragons” , “unicorns”, talking snake, “leviathan”, “behemoth”.
Quote:God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Quote:God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.
Quote:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
Quote:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
Quote:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
Quote:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
Quote:In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Quote:Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
Quote:And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Quote:The Lord points to his power in leviathan — All things under the whole heavens are the Lord’s.
1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Quote:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Quote:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.
I could go on since it is Old Testament year and we will read this stuff this year in class. I already heard a few guys bust up laughing while reading some of those. Like on my own said, the value is in the story, not literalness. Much of what we read is just oral tradition and genealogy history and stories
Made for a very specific audience. It wasn’t written in the time thinking thousand of years from
Now who will read this?
The Old Testament in particular was never meant for non Jews when it was written. It was designed to help them and their culture and that’s who it was written for. With the Jews to teach non Jews about it. But it wasn’t written for us to study at the time it was written. But we have these books now and they add value to our lives if including the BOM if we separate the wheat from the chaff.
hope wrote:I feel promptings & and hear whisperings. Beyond that, I don’t know anymore what is real.
Hi Hope, I’m Tom and I have dealt with the sense of not knowing what is real and what isn’t. Based on my own experience, I can tell you for certain that you are firmly grounded and heading in the right direction. Those last two sentences that you wrote make all the difference. That is what it is all about. And those promptings and whisperings lead to greater things, things that ultimately do confirm that the Church is true.
I myself have spent years wrestling with what seems to be overwhelming evidence that none of these historical events actually happened. It’s fine with me if they never happened as long as the fruits of the Gospel are real … and yes, they are real and even tangible. You know why Joseph Smith wrote about messengers shaking hands (D&C 129)? Probably because he knew that there are things from beyond the veil that are indeed real, even physically real, not just thoughts or dreams or visions. I know this too. So if somehow the narrative that we’ve been taught was never literally true, that’s ok with me.
I’ve been where you are, and to some extent I’m still there. I did once literally believe all of the things you mentioned and much more to be literal, as taught by the church. Even before my faith crisis, though, I had come to realize some of them could not possibly be literal – like Jonah. Over time and through my faith crisis I have come to understand that most of it isn’t literal (or real, I guess) and perhaps none of it is – although I do believe some of it is. I have also come to understand that it doesn’t matter if it’s literal (real) or not, what matters is what it means to me. That’s actually why I don’t care if Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon (I don’t actually think he was capable of doing so) because what it teaches is good. So Jonah didn’t live in a fish’s belly – there is a good moral to that story, just like the nursery rhymes we share with our children. I’ve stopped obsessing about what is real or literal and what isn’t and I have found peace in doing so. hope wrote:Yesterday I began reading recent threads and my mind is officially blown. I thought I was making ‘progress’ in my faith journey… and now I wonder what is real?
This is one of the dangers of this forum and one of the blessings as well, depending on your point of view. When I first started visiting this forum, my wife was concerned that I would encounter ideas or points of view that would prevent me from making “progress”—defined in her terms as coming to a strong conviction of the literal truth of the Church. And I have come across things that I didn’t know before (the Kinderhoek plates, for one). Yet I have come to feel that a belief or an idea isn’t worth having if it can’t be challenged. If I have faith that isn’t rooted well, that will come crumbling down the moment I find out about X (replace X with whatever is challenging you right now), I don’t see the value in that faith.Curtis wrote:Losing certainty can be scary – but I believe it also is the only path to rediscovering pure faith. Another central Gospel paradox.
As Curtis points out, doubt is also the precursor to true faith—defined in my terms as hoping and/or believing in something that you cannot know or prove with 100% certainty.Roadrunner wrote:It’s taken a lot of mental effort to convince myself that I can interpret doctrine as I see fit.
I find this challenging as well. In terms of the temple recommend interview, I strongly believe that the man asking the questions, and the men who wrote the questions, expect that when I say yes, I believe in God, that I believe in a literal, physical God. I know some believe that the questions are meant to be vague and open to interpretation, but I feel that’s just a rationalization. Anyway, that’s another topic that I think I’ll open later. I don’t meant to get this one off on a tangent.I want to thank you all for your thoughts, personal experiences, and ideas. Thank you so much for taking the time to reach out to me through your heartfelt words. What an amazing group of friends. :wave: I keep reading and rereading each of your comments. It’s as if you are part of this huge jigsaw puzzle I am putting together and I don’t know what the final picture or scene looks like. I am warming up to the idea that it really is okay that I don’t know what it all looks like anymore, and that anything is really possible. Anything! I think that is part of the mind blowing experience for me.
🙂 My faith journey officially began in May 2013 when I was working on a school project with my 13 year old son. I think the seeds had been planted long before then, but they began sprouting at that time. I reside in the midst of a forest now.
I feel so free. I feel as if I am stepping out of a black & white movie into a world of color I never before knew existed.
Daeruin wrote:
Roadrunner wrote:It’s taken a lot of mental effort to convince myself that I can interpret doctrine as I see fit.
I find this challenging as well. In terms of the temple recommend interview, I strongly believe that the man asking the questions, and the men who wrote the questions, expect that when I say yes, I believe in God, that I believe in a literal, physical God. … Anyway, that’s another topic that I think I’ll open later. I don’t meant to get this one off on a tangent.Hello Daeruin,
Like you I don’t want to hijack this thread because I think it has a lot of nice sentiments to it. I just want to explain my comment a bit more. Perhaps “as I see fit” comes across as too arbitrary – a statement like “as I feel is right” would more accurately express my thoughts. I think it’s not only our right, but also our responsibility, to act according to what we think is right, regardless of what our church leaders say. As far as the temple recommend questions go, currently I’m in a calling in which I issue temple recommends. I don’t want to be the middle man between the interviewee and the Lord. For me, if that person can answer the questions and feel good about their answers then I feel I should issue a recommend. If they ask me questions, we discuss and see where it takes us, but in the end I can’t put myself in the position of expecting only TBM answers – otherwise no recommend.
Hope,
I really appreciate your heartfelt comments. This journey can be difficult but I firmly believe can be very rewarding. Your post makes we wish we could be our own little real ward.
What is “real” about the temple recommend questions (as in objective, not as in “real to that person”) is the actual wording of the questions themselves. Everything else, including how the interviewer and interviewee interpret the questions, is constructed around and outside the reality of the actual questions. Thus, I answer according to how I understand the question and don’t give a flying fig if that is different than how the interviewer understands the questions. Anything else is inauthentic to me – and the interview is about me, not the person conducting it. hope wrote:I want to thank you all for your thoughts, personal experiences, and ideas. Thank you so much for taking the time to reach out to me through your heartfelt words. What an amazing group of friends.
:wave: I keep reading and rereading each of your comments. It’s as if you are part of this huge jigsaw puzzle I am putting together and I don’t know what the final picture or scene looks like. I am warming up to the idea that it really is okay that I don’t know what it all looks like anymore, and that anything is really possible. Anything! I think that is part of the mind blowing experience for me.
🙂 My faith journey officially began in May 2013 when I was working on a school project with my 13 year old son. I think the seeds had been planted long before then, but they began sprouting at that time. I reside in the midst of a forest now.
I feel so free. I feel as if I am stepping out of a black & white movie into a world of color I never before knew existed.
Some of those quotes were my own thoughts as well. For all my life I was told what to do, how to think and what it think and when. It was odd being a fully grown adult and not knowing who I was or what i really wanted. But it felt good to finally be able to explore a world of infinite possibilities I could choose from and follow. It was liked my mind was tapped into a one way thinking and running in circles and all of a sudden I was finally off the nascar track. I was on the open road exploring all of gods mysteries and creations and inspirations. Not just pre-approved material with a ore approved life chart set in hardcore mode.
I stayed though, I find much good and I love the people with all my heart. I just needed to get away from dogma so I could mentally breath and figure out who I was.
You have the opportunity to figure out who you really are and what you really want. It might be the same thing or something different, but you can own it for yourself. You can be yourself. It’s not a easy journey to do that but it has been worth while for many.
Most people here are not here to tell you what to believe. Just to help you find what it is you are looking for.
That’s why I really like the people here. They give you room to breath and help. I hope you find it safe and non stressful and helpful here too. I think this place is a good fit for you if you are seeking(non of us have all or even most of the answers) and looking for love, hope and good fruit. Happy your doing better today. Take care.
🙂
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